Vince Li has taken a significant step toward regaining his freedom and returning to the community -- less than two years after the mentally ill man randomly stabbed, beheaded and dismembered a sleeping passenger on a Greyhound bus.
Dr. Steven Kraemer told a provincial review board Monday Li is ready to start receiving supervised passes that let him out of his locked ward at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre. He said Li's treatment team endorses the idea of letting him out for fresh air and recreation twice a day, up to 15 minutes each time. Kraemer said Li's opportunities could gradually be increased to a pair of daily one-hour leaves.
Li would be accompanied by one nurse and one security guard at all times, which is an increase of the typical one-on-one supervision other residents receive. The grounds are not surrounded by any fence or barrier and extra staff would likely have to be hired to accommodate the resources needed for Li, he said.
"We're taking a very cautious approach. We have no way of knowing how he will respond," said Kraemer.
"I believe it's time to gather some evidence about his ability in the community," added his lawyer, Gordon Bates.
Family and friends of Li's victim, Tim McLean, filled the Winnipeg courtroom and said they are opposed to giving Li any outdoor time. They say the risk of something going wrong is too high.
"I was shocked the whole facility isn't surrounded by a fence," said McLean's mother, Carol de Delley. "I don't think he should have any freedom. Treat him humanely, but in a locked facility for the rest of his life."
Crown attorney Corrine Deegan told the review board it's far too early to be giving Li any privileges.
"These supervised ground permits are not appropriate," she argued. "The fact they are requesting that (extra) level of security is evidence of concern."
The review board is expected to give a written decision about Li's immediate future later this week.
Li was found not criminally responsible last year for the 2008 killing and beheading of McLean, 22, on board a Greyhound Bus near Portage la Prairie. He admitted responsibility for the unprovoked attack but was found by a judge to be suffering from untreated schizophrenia and psychotic delusions at the time, which included hearing commands from God ordering him to kill McLean, whom he apparently viewed as a demon.
The verdict spared him a criminal record and prison term and put him under the control of the review board, which meets annually to decide what type of care and supervision he should receive. There is no minimum period for which a patient must remain in treatment.
Li sat quietly during Monday's hour-long hearing, surrounded by several sheriff's officers. He wore a grey pinstripe suit and white runners, which were pulled together tightly by leg shackles.
Kraemer said Monday Li has made "significant" progress since he last appeared in June 2009. He said Li has responded well to medication, listens well to staff and has attended all required programming and treatment. Li has developed a better understanding about the impact of his crime and only "occasionally" suffers from the hallucinations that once haunted him.
Kraemer said Li has been deemed a low risk to try and flee the facility. He has also stayed in frequent contact with his wife, who lives in Edmonton, and other family back in China.
"We don't believe at this point in time he poses an imminent risk," he said. Li is also functioning well with other high-risk patients at Selkirk and has not been subjected to any threats, said Kraemer.
The previous headline of this story, before it was changed, was "Killer may soon taste freedom" which was completely biased. He is not being freed, he is going outside for sunshine and fresh air. This headline was completely misleading. And also, Li is not a criminal or a killer by law. He was found not criminally responsible. He should be able to receive basic human rights and not be treated worse than a prisoner. Li will not "taste freedom". We are talking about 30 minutes a day of sunshine, a basic human right which he should have received from the beginning of his treatment. This is not freedom. The previous headline was sensationalized and irresponsible, reactionary and slanted. Li was found not criminally responsible so to treat him as a criminal, is against his rights. The word "passes" makes it appear as if Li will be allowed to be in the community, which is not true. He would only be allowed in the facility courtyard with supervision. He would not pose any danger to the public. Being supervised does not constitute freedom. The Free Press writes these types of articles to outrage the uninformed. Being allowed outside should be a basic right and is not newsworthy. If patients cooperate and participate in treatment, they are granted supervised passes on hospital grounds, which can lead to longer passes and eventually, unsupervised passes.
The lack of knowledge and understanding towards mental health, especially schizophrenia is absolutely frightening.
Are we living in ancient times here? It sounds like a lot of you want to use some of the more barbaric methods used in the past to treat Li. No daylight at all? Not even a 15 minute walk!? Maybe we should just try some shock treatment? Start removing parts of his brain perhaps?
Yes, what he did was horrifying, but he was clearly suffering from a completely out of control schizophrenic episode. That means he literally had no control over his actions, which is why he was found not criminally responsible.
Get the man, as well as Tim's family the treatment they need for them to move on with their lives in a positive way. While we're at it, get some treatment for the people who honestly believe that we should be torturing a mentally ill human being.
Are we living in ancient times here? It sounds like a lot of you want to use some of the more barbaric methods used in the past to treat Li. No daylight at all? Not even a 15 minute walk!? Maybe we should just try some shock treatment? Start removing parts of his brain perhaps?
Yes, what he did was horrifying, but he was clearly suffering from a completely out of control schizophrenic episode. That means he literally had no control over his actions, which is why he was found not criminally responsible.
Get the man, as well as Tim's family the treatment they need for them to move on with their lives in a positive way. While we're at it, get some treatment for the people who honestly believe that we should be torturing a mentally ill human being.
It would be inhumane to deny Li the basic right of sunshine and fresh air for 30 minutes a day. Even prisoners convicted of a crime receive those rights and Li is not a criminal as he was found not criminally responsible.
I know he murdered an innocent person, but he has been diagnosed with a severe mental disorder which limits his ability to know right from wrong. Its not entirely his fault and we should have some compassion.
What if you couldn`t control you actions or had vivid thoughts/visions that made you act inappropriately?
What if you couldn`t control you actions or had vivid thoughts/visions that made you act inappropriately?
Execution is not how a civilised country treats mentally ill criminals.
1. NO ONE is saying he should EVER be released; just allowed to get a few minutes of sunshine and fresh air - his family did not oppose letting him outside, they oppose letting him out of the facility - and no one is suggesting that he should be given any sort of freedom...NO ONE.
2. Some of you should remember that he is now highly medicated in a facility that has access to some pretty bad-ass tranquilizers, first of all; secondly, if the QUALIFIED mental health staff deem him to agitated to go outside, they will keep him inside.
3. Security at a facility for the criminally insane is pretty darned good and the staff are damned well trained.
And lastly - stop making it `personal`with comments like `well he can go outside if he`s living with the doctor`...it contributes nothing to the conversation and you sound like a pouting six year old - why would you wish harm to a doctor or his family...one can be against the death penalty, can act in the best interests of society by giving this man medical care AND be in support of Tim`s family and their grief....surely we can maintain more than one stream of though at a time.
As far as the ignorance regarding mental illness displayed on this thread. It is shocking. Is it any wonder there is still a stigma attached to mental illness when most people obviously don't even understand what it is. Yes what happened on that bus was horrific and shocking but this man is not a "monster" or an "animal". He is mentally ill. Get that into your heads once and for all. LEARN something instead of just ranting like clueless fools. Mental illness could happen to your loved one or in your family, or to you.
Civilized and humane countries do not execute or deport or imprison the mentally ill.
This man is not a criminal, he's a patient. As long as adequate precautions are taken to protect the public and himself, he should be allowed to go outside. Any person could suffer from such an illness and it isn't just to punish him for something that was outside his control, merely for the sake of satisfying a misdirected lust for vengeance.
Instead, let's take that emotion and channel it to push for more funding for research into causes and treatment of mental illness. Someday, we may be able to effectively cure schizophrenia.
He's in custody to protect the general public, not to make his life as miserable as possible in some twisted attempt for justice through hateful vengeance - what do the people who say "Lock him in a 5x5 cell" and "take away all his rights" really hope to achieve by such actions?
I'm not looking to invite the guy as my next roommate or anything, he's clearly dangerous and, frankly, removed himself from humanity as I know it, but I really don't get the lust for "punishing" him - surely no one is suggesting this will "teach him a lesson" so that he will suddenly become a normal and positive contributor to society... so what's the objective of these desires?
Instead, let's take that emotion and channel it to push for more funding for research into causes and treatment of mental illness. Someday, we may be able to effectively cure schizophrenia.
The "Torture him, he's a monster" crowd complain about his cruelty and horrific acts while psychotic, then suggest cruelty and horrific acts be carried out upon him as revenge. The mob somehow judge themselves to be better than him, more civilized, yet they don't even have *psychosis* to justify their cruelty.
They are sane (presumably?) and they call for cruelty. At least he had an excuse. They have none.
They are sane (presumably?) and they call for cruelty. At least he had an excuse. They have none.
He's in custody to protect the general public, not to make his life as miserable as possible in some twisted attempt for justice through hateful vengeance - what do the people who say "Lock him in a 5x5 cell" and "take away all his rights" really hope to achieve by such actions?
I'm not looking to invite the guy as my next roommate or anything, he's clearly dangerous and, frankly, removed himself from humanity as I know it, but I really don't get the lust for "punishing" him - surely no one is suggesting this will "teach him a lesson" so that he will suddenly become a normal and positive contributor to society... so what's the objective of these desires?
Li should not be punished for a crime he never intended to commit. He should be granted basic human rights and should not be treated worse and less humanely than a prisoner.
What part of mental ILLNESS do many of you not understand? If he had had a seizure while driving and killed someone, would you still demand that he be charged with murder and never be allowed outside? The man is a patient, who should remain under medical supervision in a locked facility, but he is not a criminal.
The ignorance displayed by people on this web board continues to amaze me. Please tell me this isn't a true representation of my fellow citizens.
The intolerance and hate I have heard spewed here makes me ashamed to be a Winnipegger. The shocking and blatant disregard people have for people with mental conditions is absolutely horrifying. The act performed, as monstrous and horrible as it was, was not performed by the real Vincent Li. It was performed by an illness, by Schizophrenia, a disease that affects thousands of people with horrifying delusions and demons that most of us cannot comprehend.
I feel awful for the McLean family, and I feel awful for the Li family. There are 2 victims here. When Li comes out of the terrifying fog of Sczhizophrenia, he will have to deal with what he has done.
Hate the disease. Do not hate the man. Li is not a monster. Paul Bernardo is a monster. Li will never truly be free of what he has done, and his demons will likely haunt him for the rest of his days.
Calling for his execution, as DeDelly has done many times before, is the equivalent of executing the retarded.
It is time for healing here. The "vincent" that killed Tim McLean is dead. The real Vincent Li is now emerging from the fog.
If this tragedy signifies anything, it is that Schizophrenia needs more understanding, by everyone.
- Two wrongs don't make a right. An eye for an eye makes the world go blind. Vince Li does not pose a risk to anyone by being allowed outside to get sunshine and fresh air, being supervised by two guards. Denying him sunshine and fresh air, is a violation of human rights and is inhumane and cruel. He is not legally a criminal and therefore, should not be treated worse than one. Even those prisoners convicted of murder, for a rational crime, are allowed to have recreation and sunshine. Denying Li this right, is inhumane and should not be tolerated in a civilized society. Li was not rational or mentally coherent and present at the time of the crime. I am shocked at the public's lack of sympathy and compassion for those with mental disorders and the hate and ignorance displayed in their posts. Execution, deportation and imprisonment for the mentally ill, is barbaric and uncivilized in nature. People who advocate for this, are completely disgusting and misinformed about mental illness. Li should not be treated worse than a prisoner. He deserves basic human rights and to be treated with respect and dignity. He should be allowed supervised excursions on the grounds of the mental facility. The public is ignorant and misinformed about the impact and nature of mental illnesses on a person`s reason and judgment. Li's actions were unintentional as he was not rational at the time and not in control of his actions. He did not understand his actions. The public does not seem to understand how mental illness affects a person's reason and judgment.
One cannot be guilty of a crime if they are in a mental state that prohibits reason and/or they are unable to comprehend the consequences of their actions. Li is a victim of his mental illness or disease, as McLean was a victim of the crime. Mental illness is not something any person with the ability to reason would wish upon themself.
Offering him anything less than humane treatment in a mental facility, would be barbaric, inhumane and uncivilized. We need to have understanding, sympathy and compassion for the mentally ill. Prison would only worsen this man's mental state and would not offer him any mental health treatment. He would be released as a more dangerous person. If one is incapable of understanding their actions which are unintentional, they should be found not criminally responsible. You cannot be blamed and punished for an act which you did understand the nature of and which was not intentional. The public is so ignorant and misinformed about mental illness and it is completely disgusting. He should not be punished for actions which were not intended and not rational. He needs treatment, not punishment. The public needs to take the time to educate themselves about mental illnesses and how they affect individuals. They just don't understand. The majority of the public are ignorant and cold-hearted + have no compassion or sympathy for those with mental disorders such as Vincent Li. Vincent Li was found not criminally responsible as he suffered from schizophrenia, incapable of understanding his actions and their nature. I agree, the act committed by Vince Li was horrific and gruesome. However, we cannot punish somebody for actions which were unconscious and irrational due to a mental disorder. Denying this man basic human rights, is uncivilized and inhumane. We cannot justify punishing someone who was incapable of knowing that their actions were wrong and irrational, and whose actions were unintentional due to a mental disorder. That is wrong, uncivilized and inhumane. You don't lose your rights when you commit a crime. You are still entitled to your Charter rights. Denying those, is inhumane and barbaric.
I am amazed at how absolutely ignorant so many of people are. The majority of you know nothing about mental illness and the effects it has on people suffereing from it. Schizophrenia is caused by an excessive amount of dopamine in the brain, and it can be seen on CT scan. Antipsychotics can be used to CONTROL the symptoms which can range in individuals from hallucinations, to hearing voices, to thinking everyone is out to get you. His schizophrenia may have been uncontrolled due to the stigma related to seeking help for mental disorder, especially among those of Asian decent. Many some of you should google schizophrenia before you go making judgements and claiming you know so much about such a debilitating disorder. I do feel for all involved in this case. But, how is society going to resolve the issues surrounding mental illness and prevent something like this from ever occurring if all anyone does is stigmatize someone with a mental disorder and say that it is not a disease. Like I said, google it before you start making assumptions and commenting on the effects of a disorder you know nothing about.
There is evidence that an excessive amount of dopamine in the brain is the biological cause of schizophrena. Hence, why the treatment is aimed at reducing dopamine activity. Read a textbook, you will find the information there. And this can be seens on a scan and detected in a similar way as Parkinson's Disease (which is decreased dopamine). Sure lobotamys were used back in the 1960's as a cure for mental disorders, but in this day and age we know more and are able to treat disease more effectively. As for EST, that is used soley as a last result. To diagnose mental disorders, psychiatrists use a manual called "DSM_IV_TR". I was simply stating that numerous people are passing judgements on a disorder they have little knowledge of. The whole point of what I was trying to say was that many people are passing judgements and making ignorant comments that he should "rot" and "no longer a human being" because of what happened. And many of these people likely do not have any idea of how debilitating schizophrenia truly is. It was very sad and unfortunate for everyone involved.
There are a lot of people on CBC.ca who support using torture as a punishment. Some even believe in just putting a bullet through his head.
I sincerely hope that I never have to suffer from a mental illness, and I certainly hope that none of you are in a position to decide what should be done with me if this happens.
I can't believe how many ignorant, misinformed people there are on this forum. Do any of you have a clue about the nature of schizophrenia? People are always eager to pity cancer, MS, or Parkinson's Disease, etc., but if someone has mental illness, he or she is dismissed as being "nuts," or a "psycho." Do you honestly believe a man in his right mind would behead someone on a bus, then proceed to perform indignities on the corpse? Give your heads a shake. How arrogant that some of you feel Li's mental illness has no bearing on his sentencing or treatment. You don't know how you would behave if you were in his situation because you are NOT mentally ill (or, if you are, not to the same degree). As for the old, "Well, it's his own fault because he stopped taking his meds" argument, that doesn't stand up. Schizophrenia is not a disease that you turn on and off with meds. The paranoia is always there, and judgment is always impaired to a certain degree. These people are also victims, and they need careful monitoring to ensure that there meds are effective and that they are being taken properly. I mean no disrespect to Tim's memory or his family, but we also have to start viewing mentally ill people as human beings. We can't just take them behind a barn and shoot them like dogs. I work with offenders, both mentally ill and not, so I think I provide an informed view on this subject. While there are definitely nasty people who commit crimes fully aware of what they are doing, Vincent Li is not one of those people.
Rather than screaming for the death of Li, maybe we should be screaming for the cure to scizophrenia. Mental illness can happen to anyone, we don't know what causes it, and our children are not only at risk of victimization from the mentally ill, but also at risk of becomming the mentally ill unless and until we find a cure.
The responses here are so typical of the lac of understanding of mental illness. Not just schizophrenia but ALL mental illness. This issue goes much deeper than the act itself, this shows not only the deep flaws in the mental health care system, but also ignorance of mental illness as a whole. Not everyone who has schizophrenia commits such an act, people who are perfectly sane also do such things. In all of this multiple families have been destroyed. Comments that many are making are exactly why people do not going out and seek help for their mental illness. Further, you cannot force someone to take their medications for anything.
The difference between Li and Bernardo is significant. It's most likely that Paul Bernado is a sociopath/psychopath, in which case he fully understands the different between right and wrong and was never disconnected from reality. Because of that, he knew what he was doing yet chose to do it anyway. Yes, he's a monster. Li, on the other hand, was suffering from delusions and auditory hallucinations and had no conscious control over his actions. It has nothing to do with a moral compass or lack thereof. He didn't know right from wrong. He was obeying commands caused by his schizophrenia.
Most of the comments here to this story are quite interesting. It shows not a lot of people understand mental illnesses (C'mon people, it only takes a few minutes to read about schizophrenia -- voices in their heads, etc). Most claim the doctors are idiots (I'm sorry, where is your degree?).
Also, disgusted by those crying for death of the criminal. Wow, how barbaric. FOCUS ON THE REAL CULPRIT HERE -- SCHIZOPHRENIA. However, from the comments we might as well round up the mentally ill and take them "out" of our society -- Hitler would be proud.
This is the comment I left on timslaw.ca:
The ignorance displayed by people on this web board continues to amaze me. Please tell me this isn't a true representation of my fellow citizens.
The intolerance and hate I have heard spewed here makes me ashamed to be a Winnipegger. The shocking and blatant disregard people have for people with mental conditions is absolutely horrifying. The act performed, as monstrous and horrible as it was, was not performed by the real Vincent Li. It was performed by an illness, by Schizophrenia, a disease that affects thousands of people with horrifying delusions and demons that most of us cannot comprehend.
I feel awful for the McLean family, and I feel awful for the Li family. There are 2 victims here. When Li comes out of the terrifying fog of Sczhizophrenia, he will have to deal with what he has done.
Hate the disease. Do not hate the man. Li is not a monster. Paul Bernardo is a monster. Li will never truly be free of what he has done, and his demons will likely haunt him for the rest of his days.
Calling for his execution, as DeDelly has done many times before, is the equivalent of executing the retarded.
It is time for healing here. The "vincent" that killed Tim McLean is dead. The real Vincent Li is now emerging from the fog.
If this tragedy signifies anything, it is that Schizophrenia needs more understanding, by everyone.
- Two wrongs don't make a right. An eye for an eye makes the world go blind. Vince Li does not pose a risk to anyone by being allowed outside to get sunshine and fresh air, being supervised by two guards. Denying him sunshine and fresh air, is a violation of human rights and is inhumane and cruel. He is not legally a criminal and therefore, should not be treated worse than one. Even those prisoners convicted of murder, for a rational crime, are allowed to have recreation and sunshine. Denying Li this right, is inhumane and should not be tolerated in a civilized society. Li was not rational or mentally coherent and present at the time of the crime. I am shocked at the public's lack of sympathy and compassion for those with mental disorders and the hate and ignorance displayed in their posts. Execution, deportation and imprisonment for the mentally ill, is barbaric and uncivilized in nature. People who advocate for this, are completely disgusting and misinformed about mental illness. Li should not be treated worse than a prisoner. He deserves basic human rights and to be treated with respect and dignity. He should be allowed supervised excursions on the grounds of the mental facility. The public is ignorant and misinformed about the impact and nature of mental illnesses on a person`s reason and judgment. Li's actions were unintentional as he was not rational at the time and not in control of his actions. He did not understand his actions. The public does not seem to understand how mental illness affects a person's reason and judgment.
One cannot be guilty of a crime if they are in a mental state that prohibits reason and/or they are unable to comprehend the consequences of their actions. Li is a victim of his mental illness or disease, as McLean was a victim of the crime. Mental illness is not something any person with the ability to reason would wish upon themself.
Offering him anything less than humane treatment in a mental facility, would be barbaric, inhumane and uncivilized. We need to have understanding, sympathy and compassion for the mentally ill. Prison would only worsen this man's mental state and would not offer him any mental health treatment. He would be released as a more dangerous person. If one is incapable of understanding their actions which are unintentional, they should be found not criminally responsible. You cannot be blamed and punished for an act which you did understand the nature of and which was not intentional. The public is so ignorant and misinformed about mental illness and it is completely disgusting. He should not be punished for actions which were not intended and not rational. He needs treatment, not punishment. The public needs to take the time to educate themselves about mental illnesses and how they affect individuals. They just don't understand. The majority of the public are ignorant and cold-hearted + have no compassion or sympathy for those with mental disorders such as Vincent Li. Vincent Li was found not criminally responsible as he suffered from schizophrenia, incapable of understanding his actions and their nature. I agree, the act committed by Vince Li was horrific and gruesome. However, we cannot punish somebody for actions which were unconscious and irrational due to a mental disorder. Denying this man basic human rights, is uncivilized and inhumane. We cannot justify punishing someone who was incapable of knowing that their actions were wrong and irrational, and whose actions were unintentional due to a mental disorder. That is wrong, uncivilized and inhumane. You don't lose your rights when you commit a crime. You are still entitled to your Charter rights. Denying those, is inhumane and barbaric.
I am amazed at how absolutely ignorant so many of people are. The majority of you know nothing about mental illness and the effects it has on people suffereing from it. Schizophrenia is caused by an excessive amount of dopamine in the brain, and it can be seen on CT scan. Antipsychotics can be used to CONTROL the symptoms which can range in individuals from hallucinations, to hearing voices, to thinking everyone is out to get you. His schizophrenia may have been uncontrolled due to the stigma related to seeking help for mental disorder, especially among those of Asian decent. Many some of you should google schizophrenia before you go making judgements and claiming you know so much about such a debilitating disorder. I do feel for all involved in this case. But, how is society going to resolve the issues surrounding mental illness and prevent something like this from ever occurring if all anyone does is stigmatize someone with a mental disorder and say that it is not a disease. Like I said, google it before you start making assumptions and commenting on the effects of a disorder you know nothing about.
There is evidence that an excessive amount of dopamine in the brain is the biological cause of schizophrena. Hence, why the treatment is aimed at reducing dopamine activity. Read a textbook, you will find the information there. And this can be seens on a scan and detected in a similar way as Parkinson's Disease (which is decreased dopamine). Sure lobotamys were used back in the 1960's as a cure for mental disorders, but in this day and age we know more and are able to treat disease more effectively. As for EST, that is used soley as a last result. To diagnose mental disorders, psychiatrists use a manual called "DSM_IV_TR". I was simply stating that numerous people are passing judgements on a disorder they have little knowledge of. The whole point of what I was trying to say was that many people are passing judgements and making ignorant comments that he should "rot" and "no longer a human being" because of what happened. And many of these people likely do not have any idea of how debilitating schizophrenia truly is. It was very sad and unfortunate for everyone involved.
There are a lot of people on CBC.ca who support using torture as a punishment. Some even believe in just putting a bullet through his head.
I sincerely hope that I never have to suffer from a mental illness, and I certainly hope that none of you are in a position to decide what should be done with me if this happens.
I can't believe how many ignorant, misinformed people there are on this forum. Do any of you have a clue about the nature of schizophrenia? People are always eager to pity cancer, MS, or Parkinson's Disease, etc., but if someone has mental illness, he or she is dismissed as being "nuts," or a "psycho." Do you honestly believe a man in his right mind would behead someone on a bus, then proceed to perform indignities on the corpse? Give your heads a shake. How arrogant that some of you feel Li's mental illness has no bearing on his sentencing or treatment. You don't know how you would behave if you were in his situation because you are NOT mentally ill (or, if you are, not to the same degree). As for the old, "Well, it's his own fault because he stopped taking his meds" argument, that doesn't stand up. Schizophrenia is not a disease that you turn on and off with meds. The paranoia is always there, and judgment is always impaired to a certain degree. These people are also victims, and they need careful monitoring to ensure that there meds are effective and that they are being taken properly. I mean no disrespect to Tim's memory or his family, but we also have to start viewing mentally ill people as human beings. We can't just take them behind a barn and shoot them like dogs. I work with offenders, both mentally ill and not, so I think I provide an informed view on this subject. While there are definitely nasty people who commit crimes fully aware of what they are doing, Vincent Li is not one of those people.
Rather than screaming for the death of Li, maybe we should be screaming for the cure to scizophrenia. Mental illness can happen to anyone, we don't know what causes it, and our children are not only at risk of victimization from the mentally ill, but also at risk of becomming the mentally ill unless and until we find a cure.
The responses here are so typical of the lac of understanding of mental illness. Not just schizophrenia but ALL mental illness. This issue goes much deeper than the act itself, this shows not only the deep flaws in the mental health care system, but also ignorance of mental illness as a whole. Not everyone who has schizophrenia commits such an act, people who are perfectly sane also do such things. In all of this multiple families have been destroyed. Comments that many are making are exactly why people do not going out and seek help for their mental illness. Further, you cannot force someone to take their medications for anything.
The difference between Li and Bernardo is significant. It's most likely that Paul Bernado is a sociopath/psychopath, in which case he fully understands the different between right and wrong and was never disconnected from reality. Because of that, he knew what he was doing yet chose to do it anyway. Yes, he's a monster. Li, on the other hand, was suffering from delusions and auditory hallucinations and had no conscious control over his actions. It has nothing to do with a moral compass or lack thereof. He didn't know right from wrong. He was obeying commands caused by his schizophrenia.
Most of the comments here to this story are quite interesting. It shows not a lot of people understand mental illnesses (C'mon people, it only takes a few minutes to read about schizophrenia -- voices in their heads, etc). Most claim the doctors are idiots (I'm sorry, where is your degree?).
Also, disgusted by those crying for death of the criminal. Wow, how barbaric. FOCUS ON THE REAL CULPRIT HERE -- SCHIZOPHRENIA. However, from the comments we might as well round up the mentally ill and take them "out" of our society -- Hitler would be proud.
This is the comment I left on timslaw.ca:
The ignorance of the public regarding mental illness is shocking and highly disturbing to me. Vince Li was not rational at the time of the killing and was not mentally present, therefore, he should not be held criminally responsible. We need to have some compassion and understanding for peole who suffer from severe mental illnesses. He had no control over his actions. To deny him the basic human right of sunshine and fresh air, would be inhumane and uncivilized. Even prisoners get more rights than Mr. Li. He was found to be legally, not a criminal and therefore, should not be treated worse than a criminal. He should not be punished for a crime which he never intended to commit. I feel awful for the McLean family but I also feel awful for the Li family and have sympathy for those with mental disorders, which they cannot control. McLean was a victim of the crime, but Li is a victim of his illness. Li is not a monster and it is highly disturbing to me, that the majority of the public is advocating for execution, deportation and imprisonment of this man. Among the public, there is an exceptional lack of understanding of mental illness. What is this.. the dark ages? In Canada, the mentally ill need to be treated humanely. Anything less, is barbaric.
I think the lion's share of the posters here need to walk a mile in a person with a mental illness's shoes. As someone who struggles with one myself, I find a lot of the comments here barbaric and cruel. When did we become a lynch mob?
The mental healthcare system fails and many people fall through the cracks. A large part of this is due to the enormous stigma around these diseases. A stigma that has been proven here all day by the rednecks,rubes, and hillbillies that call for the man to be gibbeted.
One day someone in your family will encounter mental illness, and you will sing a different tune.
The intolerance and hate I have heard spewed here makes me ashamed to be a Winnipegger. The shocking and blatant disregard people have for people with mental conditions is absolutely horrifying. The act performed, as monstrous and horrible as it was, was not performed by the real Vincent Li. It was performed by an illness, by Schizophrenia, a disease that affects thousands of people with horrifying delusions and demons that most of us cannot comprehend.
I feel awful for the McLean family, and I feel awful for the Li family. There are 2 victims here. When Li comes out of the terrifying fog of Sczhizophrenia, he will have to deal with what he has done.
Hate the disease. Do not hate the man. Li is not a monster. Paul Bernardo is a monster. Li will never truly be free of what he has done, and his demons will likely haunt him for the rest of his days.
Calling for his execution, as DeDelly has done many times before, is the equivalent of executing the retarded.
It is time for healing here. The "vincent" that killed Tim McLean is dead. The real Vincent Li is now emerging from the fog.
If this tragedy signifies anything, it is that Schizophrenia needs more understanding, by everyone.
"I believe that we should make a new law, a law that would include the deportation of any immigrant for such crimes as this. Even if you became a Canadian Citizen, there should be a clause that states, that if you are involved with the killing of a CANADIAN, you are to be sent back to where your homeland is immediately."
This is the worst, backward, horrid, bigotted thing I have ever heard. What country are they going to ship you back to
I am not sure where you are getting your information Chris. There is evidence that an excessive amount of dopamine in the brain is the biological cause of schizophrena. Hence, why the treatment is aimed at reducing dopamine activity. Read a textbook, you will find the information there. And this can be seens on a scan and detected in a similar way as Parkinson's Disease (which is decreased dopamine). Sure lobotamys were used back in the 1960's as a cure for mental disorders, but in this day and age we know more and are able to treat disease more effectively. As for EST, that is used soley as a last result. To diagnose mental disorders, psychiatrists use a manual called "DSM_IV_TR". I was simply stating that numerous people are passing judgements on a disorder they have little knowledge of. The whole point of what I was trying to say was that many people are passing judgements and making ignorant comments that he should "rot" and "no longer a human being" because of what happened. And many of these people likely do not have any idea of how debilitating schizophrenia truly is. It was very sad and unfortunate for everyone involved.
I am amazed at how absolutley ignorant so many of people are. The majority of you know nothing about mental illness and the effects it has on people suffereing from it. Schizophrenia is caused by an excessive amount of dopamine in the brain, and it can be seen on CT scan. Antipsychotics can be used to CONTROL the symptoms which can range in individuals from hallucinations, to hearing voices, to thinking everyone is out to get you. His schizophrenia may have been uncontrolled due to the stigma related to seeking help for mental disorder, especially among those of Asian decent. Many some of you should google schizophrenia before you go making judgements and claiming you know so much about such a debilitating disorder. I do feel for all involved in this case. But, how is society going to resolve the issues surrounding mental illness and prevent something like this from ever occurring if all anyone does is stigmatize someone with a mental disorder and say that it is not a disease. Like I said, google it before you start making assumptions and commenting on the effects of a disorder you know nothing about.
Li didn't think he had a "right" to take a life; he wasn't in control of his mind or his actions. He didn't make a conscious decision to kill. Until someone can show me an article that proves Li ever took meds until he had stabilized to the point where going off them was a decision made by a mentally competent man, I will continue to shoot down claims that he deliberately went off his meds. And even if he did, it doesn't change a darned thing. The outcome would have been the same: he'd still be considered not criminally responsible.
"I paid close attention to the trial and that was made FACT! His wife left him b/c he was not taking his prescribed meds, he new for years and he was even in a mental hospital prior to this all happening."
I'd like to see this "fact" in print. To my knowledge, his wife left him because of his strange behaviour. Yes, he was placed in a mental hospital by the RCMP but he refused treatment and left. It's not clear from the articles I've found whether he actually took the meds that were given to him at the hospital and, if he did, for how long. I've seen nothing to indicate that he was on meds at any other time and this was three years before the murder.
The difference between Li and Bernardo is significant. It's most likely that Paul Bernado is a sociopath/psychopath, in which case he fully understands the different between right and wrong and was never disconnected from reality. Because of that, he knew what he was doing yet chose to do it anyway. Yes, he's a monster. Li, on the other hand, was suffering from delusions and auditory hallucinations and had no conscious control over his actions. It has nothing to do with a moral compass or lack thereof. He didn't know right from wrong. He was obeying commands caused by his schizophrenia.
He has a mental illness which professionals testify causes no more violence than exists in the general population.
The point is he has this illness, through no fault of his own.
So if he can be recovered, why shouldn't he reenter society.
He has not been given the chance to show he can stay on meds.
I have seen time and time again the use of the word dog in regards to Li. I was unaware of any bi-pedal members of the canine family, nor was I aware that dogs know, experience and understand things in the same way as humans.
Wait, that's because Li's a human. He's a human with full, if skewed, cognition. I don't understand why anyone would think killing the man would accomplish anything. Just serves to further stigmatize those with similar diseases/disorders, most of whom are NOT prone to violence. And the more time we have with these sick men and women, the more we learn about the problems and how to deal with it.
Returning to such ridiculous and animalistic base instincts, like an eye for an eye, serves only to truncate progress.
I am among those who believe the man should not be released to the public for a long time, and he likely won't be, at least not until he is once more physically dependent on others for basic existence. But he's a fellow human being, at least to HUMAN BEINGS. I don't want to speculate on this, but frankly, Tim is gone, and I know that his life was a blessing, to his family at least. His suffering was great, but it happened and at least it was short, quicker than slow, guilt-ridden death Li is destined to and definitely short in comparison to his family's suffering, though in time I know they will put this grim instance into a locked box in the attic and remember Tim's life, as that is what's most important for emotional well-being in light of a tragedy of such scope.
Please, please remember, my friends, what Voltaire said.
To the living we owe respect, and to the dead we owe only the truth.
I think the lion's share of the posters here need to walk a mile in a person with a mental illness's shoes. As someone who struggles with one myself, I find a lot of the comments here barbaric and cruel. When did we become a lynch mob?
The mental healthcare system fails and many people fall through the cracks. A large part of this is due to the enormous stigma around these diseases. A stigma that has been proven here all day by the rednecks,rubes, and hillbillies that call for the man to be gibbeted.
One day someone in your family will encounter mental illness, and you will sing a different tune.
The intolerance and hate I have heard spewed here makes me ashamed to be a Winnipegger. The shocking and blatant disregard people have for people with mental conditions is absolutely horrifying. The act performed, as monstrous and horrible as it was, was not performed by the real Vincent Li. It was performed by an illness, by Schizophrenia, a disease that affects thousands of people with horrifying delusions and demons that most of us cannot comprehend.
I feel awful for the McLean family, and I feel awful for the Li family. There are 2 victims here. When Li comes out of the terrifying fog of Sczhizophrenia, he will have to deal with what he has done.
Hate the disease. Do not hate the man. Li is not a monster. Paul Bernardo is a monster. Li will never truly be free of what he has done, and his demons will likely haunt him for the rest of his days.
Calling for his execution, as DeDelly has done many times before, is the equivalent of executing the retarded.
It is time for healing here. The "vincent" that killed Tim McLean is dead. The real Vincent Li is now emerging from the fog.
If this tragedy signifies anything, it is that Schizophrenia needs more understanding, by everyone.
"I believe that we should make a new law, a law that would include the deportation of any immigrant for such crimes as this. Even if you became a Canadian Citizen, there should be a clause that states, that if you are involved with the killing of a CANADIAN, you are to be sent back to where your homeland is immediately."
This is the worst, backward, horrid, bigotted thing I have ever heard. What country are they going to ship you back to
I am not sure where you are getting your information Chris. There is evidence that an excessive amount of dopamine in the brain is the biological cause of schizophrena. Hence, why the treatment is aimed at reducing dopamine activity. Read a textbook, you will find the information there. And this can be seens on a scan and detected in a similar way as Parkinson's Disease (which is decreased dopamine). Sure lobotamys were used back in the 1960's as a cure for mental disorders, but in this day and age we know more and are able to treat disease more effectively. As for EST, that is used soley as a last result. To diagnose mental disorders, psychiatrists use a manual called "DSM_IV_TR". I was simply stating that numerous people are passing judgements on a disorder they have little knowledge of. The whole point of what I was trying to say was that many people are passing judgements and making ignorant comments that he should "rot" and "no longer a human being" because of what happened. And many of these people likely do not have any idea of how debilitating schizophrenia truly is. It was very sad and unfortunate for everyone involved.
I am amazed at how absolutley ignorant so many of people are. The majority of you know nothing about mental illness and the effects it has on people suffereing from it. Schizophrenia is caused by an excessive amount of dopamine in the brain, and it can be seen on CT scan. Antipsychotics can be used to CONTROL the symptoms which can range in individuals from hallucinations, to hearing voices, to thinking everyone is out to get you. His schizophrenia may have been uncontrolled due to the stigma related to seeking help for mental disorder, especially among those of Asian decent. Many some of you should google schizophrenia before you go making judgements and claiming you know so much about such a debilitating disorder. I do feel for all involved in this case. But, how is society going to resolve the issues surrounding mental illness and prevent something like this from ever occurring if all anyone does is stigmatize someone with a mental disorder and say that it is not a disease. Like I said, google it before you start making assumptions and commenting on the effects of a disorder you know nothing about.
Li didn't think he had a "right" to take a life; he wasn't in control of his mind or his actions. He didn't make a conscious decision to kill. Until someone can show me an article that proves Li ever took meds until he had stabilized to the point where going off them was a decision made by a mentally competent man, I will continue to shoot down claims that he deliberately went off his meds. And even if he did, it doesn't change a darned thing. The outcome would have been the same: he'd still be considered not criminally responsible.
"I paid close attention to the trial and that was made FACT! His wife left him b/c he was not taking his prescribed meds, he new for years and he was even in a mental hospital prior to this all happening."
I'd like to see this "fact" in print. To my knowledge, his wife left him because of his strange behaviour. Yes, he was placed in a mental hospital by the RCMP but he refused treatment and left. It's not clear from the articles I've found whether he actually took the meds that were given to him at the hospital and, if he did, for how long. I've seen nothing to indicate that he was on meds at any other time and this was three years before the murder.
The difference between Li and Bernardo is significant. It's most likely that Paul Bernado is a sociopath/psychopath, in which case he fully understands the different between right and wrong and was never disconnected from reality. Because of that, he knew what he was doing yet chose to do it anyway. Yes, he's a monster. Li, on the other hand, was suffering from delusions and auditory hallucinations and had no conscious control over his actions. It has nothing to do with a moral compass or lack thereof. He didn't know right from wrong. He was obeying commands caused by his schizophrenia.
He has a mental illness which professionals testify causes no more violence than exists in the general population.
The point is he has this illness, through no fault of his own.
So if he can be recovered, why shouldn't he reenter society.
He has not been given the chance to show he can stay on meds.
I have seen time and time again the use of the word dog in regards to Li. I was unaware of any bi-pedal members of the canine family, nor was I aware that dogs know, experience and understand things in the same way as humans.
Wait, that's because Li's a human. He's a human with full, if skewed, cognition. I don't understand why anyone would think killing the man would accomplish anything. Just serves to further stigmatize those with similar diseases/disorders, most of whom are NOT prone to violence. And the more time we have with these sick men and women, the more we learn about the problems and how to deal with it.
Returning to such ridiculous and animalistic base instincts, like an eye for an eye, serves only to truncate progress.
I am among those who believe the man should not be released to the public for a long time, and he likely won't be, at least not until he is once more physically dependent on others for basic existence. But he's a fellow human being, at least to HUMAN BEINGS. I don't want to speculate on this, but frankly, Tim is gone, and I know that his life was a blessing, to his family at least. His suffering was great, but it happened and at least it was short, quicker than slow, guilt-ridden death Li is destined to and definitely short in comparison to his family's suffering, though in time I know they will put this grim instance into a locked box in the attic and remember Tim's life, as that is what's most important for emotional well-being in light of a tragedy of such scope.
Please, please remember, my friends, what Voltaire said.
To the living we owe respect, and to the dead we owe only the truth.
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