Help sought for troubled teen

Help sought for troubled teen

One of the country's top advocates for girls in jail was contacted about a troubled teen at the Manitoba Youth Centre before the 15-year-old girl took her life last week.

Kim Pate, executive director of the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies, said she was contacted by someone concerned for the girl's safety who said she needed counselling. Calls and emails increased after the girl hanged herself last week, went into a coma and died three days later in hospital.

Pate said she has had contact with about five people who knew the girl, including those who work at the youth centre. She has information from "within the system" about concerns the girl was suicidal a year ago.

Pate said she believes there's a "real fear of people speaking out" about the incident, which she said points to "probably a much bigger series of systemic issues here around transparency (and) accountability."

She is an expert on women in prison and is helping examine the circumstances behind the death of Ashley Smith, 19, who died in 2007 after guards watched her choke herself in a Kitchener prison.

The Winnipeg girl hanged herself while she was alone in her room in one of the youth centre's cottages.

"We think this, as in the case of Ashley Smith, really highlights the need to look at not (normalizing) prison as an option for youth, particularly those who are most vulnerable and marginalized," Pate said. "We need to be ensuring that there are adequate social services, health care and supportive environments for youth. Jails are not places to raise children."

Separate sources have told the Free Press about the need for more mental-health programming and services for residents at the Doncaster Street jail. They say the jail needs better facilities for observing high-needs youth and that some teens should be getting hospital treatment, not jail time. A source told the Free Press two more girls have attempted suicide at the youth centre since the girl's death.

Staff are doing more checks of youths at the institution, said the source, but there are limits to what they can do. They describe the youth centre as overcrowded and outdated.

"We're not addressing where they come from or what they've gone through, we're just trying to teach them maybe to get along better while they're there," said one source.

The Manitoba Youth Centre has mental health nurses who work in the jail but they don't staff the facility 24 hours a day. "They have trouble keeping people in the position because it's obviously very stressful," said the source.

On Wednesday, there were 189 youths in a facility ideally meant for 150 people.

The province's medical examiner said he'll call an inquest into the death shortly.

"The child should have been looked after more carefully," said Dr. Thambirajah Balachandra.

The suicide was the first at MYC in 35 years.

Manitoba Justice officials have refused Free Press interview requests to discuss mental-health services at the institution.

Cora Morgan, executive director of Onashowewin, works with aboriginal youths and adults who have been arrested and charged, then diverted to programming at the non-profit organization. In the last six months, three teenage girls who went to Onashowewin programs attempted suicide. One died.

"Many of our clients have come from extremely tough circumstances and are not emotionally equipped to cope with their realities," said Morgan.

These teen girl should have never been in prison. Those with mental illnesses should never be in prison, but instead in mental health facilities where they can receive proper treatment and counseling and programs. 

Province apologizes for timing of announcement on Li

Province apologizes for timing of announcement on Li

More guards, but no fence for Li's walks on grounds of mental health centre

The province apologized this morning for releasing, on the anniversary of Tim McLean's death, information on new security measures that will allow his killer, Vince Li, to walk the grounds of the Selkirk Mental Health Centre.

"If the timing of this information has caused one ounce additional pain to the McLean family, I certainly want to offer my profound regret for that," Health Minister Theresa Oswald told reporters this morning. She said the timing of the announcement was inadvertent.

"This is a family that has endured pain (that), thankfully, very few of us will ever know and no family should ever know," Oswald said. "And so if more information about the development of Mr. Li’s treatment on this day, or any day, hurts that family further, I think we should all feel regret for that. And certainly I do."

Li was found not criminally responsible last year for the July 30, 2008 beheading of 22-year-old McLean on a Greyhound bus near Portage la Prairie. He admitted responsibility for the attack, but a judge found him to be suffering from hallucinations and untreated schizophrenia at the time, which left him unable to appreciate or control his actions.

His doctors have said Li has made tremendous progress in the past two years at the centre, and two months ago the Criminal Code Review Board ruled that Li could begin taking two brief supervised outdoor passes a day.

A public uproar ensued and the province announced that Li wouldn’t be allowed to leave the centre’s secure forensic unit  additional security precautions were in place

Friday, the province issued a press release describing the new measures, adding that it would take an additional two months before they would be in force and Li would begin his strolls.

The new plan does not include the construction of a fence around the grounds that some in the community had called for.

Two more full-time security officers have been hired and will be dedicated to escorting forensic patients, including Li,  when required under disposition orders. A clinical staff member will also escort patients in such cases.

The walks will be restricted to periods when staff numbers are at their peak.

All risks will be assessed by the treatment team before Li — or any other patient requiring such security measures — is given a pass to walk the grounds.

The Selkirk centre says it has shared its security plans with the RCMP and will advise the Mounties when the walks begin.

The majority of the public is ignorant and uneducated regarding the severity of Li's mental illness. They are advocating for execution, deportation, imprisonment and denial of human rights, which are all merely revenge, not justice. Li's actions were unintentional and his disorder is to blame. He should not be deprived of his human rights. Fresh air and sunshine are beneficial to his treatment. Confinement can often worsen mental illnesses. Being allowed 15 minute walks outside, escorted by two security guards, would not pose a risk to anybody. Where is the compassion and sympathy for the mentally ill?! Obviously what Li did was horrific and gruesome, but he was experiencing a psychotic episode and was unaware of what he was doing at the time, therefore, he cannot and should not be held responsible. Legally, he is not a criminal and he should not be treated worse than one. Here in civilized societies, we don't fence in and deprive the mentally unstable of their human rights. That is completely inhumane, cruel and barbaric. Public opinion should never trump knowledgeable opinion and decisions made by the review board who considered public safety in their decision to allow Li walks. Forgiveness is the only way to move past this horrible experience. Certainly, not an easy thing to do, especially in a society that worships revenge and retribution. 

The reason he's not behind bars is because he has schizophrenia. I would suggest you do some hard research on mental illness, as you admit you don't know anything about why he's not behind bars.

Were he in jail, without meds and/or therapy, he would most definitely hurt a staff member or another inmate. Do you want that? I should hope not. I believe he should never be released, but for goodness sakes it's just an escorted walk. Maybe there should be a fence, but if he's taking his meds, and has increased security guards, then I'm not too worried about anything happening.

There's a reason why we're proud to be Canadian. Because we value a little thing called human rights. We are also supposed to be evolved enough to recognize mental illness, although some of us seem to still be down there in medival times.

 

Vince Li to be allowed supervised walks in unfenced yard

Vince Li to walk in unfenced area

There will be more guards but no fence at a Winnipeg-area mental health facility where beheader Vince Li has been granted escorted walks.

Li is being held at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre after being found not criminally responsible for stabbing and beheading Tim McLean on a Greyhound bus exactly two years ago, on July 30, 2008.

The Manitoba NDP government stated in a news release issued Friday that two more full-time security officers have been hired and will be dedicated to escorting "forensic" patients.

All security staff members at SMHC are equipped with handcuffs and radios and designated special constables with special police tactical training from Manitoba Sheriff Services, according to the release.

About $400,000 has recently been spent on security upgrades, which include more video surveillance and access controls throughout the property.

A clinical staff member will also be present for the walks, which will only take place when staff levels are at their highest and will not occur until all risks have been assessed and security measures are in place.

Shortly after the press release was issued, Manitoba Minister of Health Theresa Oswald apologized to McLean's family.

"If the timing of this information has caused one ounce additional pain to the McLean family, I certainly want to offer my profound regret for that," she said.

The Criminal Code Review Board, which examines Li's care every year, decided this spring that he should be allowed walks with two staff members on the unfenced grounds.

Soon after that decision was made, the Opposition party Progressive Conservatives called on the government to transfer Li to a fenced-in facility outside the province.

Attorney General Andrew Swan rejected that idea because decisions about Li's custody and similar cases are made by the review board — an independent body that operates under federal guidelines — not the province.

2 months before Li gets walks

The government news release, which does not name Li specifically, stated it will take about two months to get all the security arrangements implemented.

Other recent enhancements include external and internal security reviews that led to policy and procedure changes, including increasing the detail and frequency of searches of rooms and people in the forensic area, the news release noted.

The measures were designed to ensure public safety and take into consideration the needs of the general population at SMHC who are there solely for health care, the release stated.

The SMHC provides long-term mental health and acquired brain injury in-patient treatment and rehabilitation services to residents of Manitoba whose treatment and rehabilitation needs cannot be met by other services in the province.

The security plan has been shared with the RCMP and they will be told when the walks begin.

Tim McLean, 22, was on his way home to Winnipeg when he was slain on a Greyhound bus on July 30th, 2008.

Vince Li was declared not criminally responsible last year for the killing of Tim McLean on a Greyhound bus in 2008.

Security measures to be followed when Vince Li strolls grounds
Province sorry about timing of announcement
The province apologized Friday for announcing, on the anniversary of Tim McLean's death, the conditions under which convicted killer Vince Li will receive escorted passes from the Selkirk Mental Health Centre.
Health Minister Theresa Oswald said she was sorry for the gaffe, while the Conservative Opposition said it was a sign the Selinger government was more concerned for Li than the feelings of McLean's family.
The family had just returned from a morning visit to McLean's grave Friday when it learned through the media the province had approved a security plan so Li could begin taking two 15-minute strolls on the grounds of the mental health centre. The passes, which are expected to begin in two months, were ordered by the Criminal Code Review Board in early June.
Amanda Corrigan, McLean's sister, said she didn't appreciate learning about the new security procedures from a Free Press reporter. The province should have given the family notice before the information was released to the media, she said.
"I just think it's in bad taste (the way the situation was handled)."
Li was found not criminally responsible last year for the July 30, 2008 beheading of 22-year-old McLean on a Greyhound bus near Portage la Prairie. He admitted responsibility for the attack but a judge found him to be suffering from hallucinations and untreated schizophrenia at the time, which left him unable to appreciate or control his actions.
But over the past two years, Li has made great progress, his doctors said earlier this year. They convinced the review board to authorize the escorted strolls, prompting a public uproar. Justice Minister Andrew Swan said at the time the province would bar Li from walking outside the centre's locked forensic unit "unless and until" new security measures were in place.
On Friday, the province issued a press release setting out those new measures -- before it dawned on the minister or her staff the timing couldn't have been worse. "If the timing of this information has caused one ounce (of) additional pain to the McLean family, I certainly want to offer my profound regret for that," Oswald said. She said the timing of the announcement was inadvertent.
"This is a family that has endured pain (which), thankfully, very few of us will ever know and that no family should ever know. And so if more information about the development of Mr. Li's treatment on this day or any day hurts that family further, I think we should all feel regret for that. And certainly I do."
Conservative justice critic Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach) said Oswald's apology, while welcome, speaks to the fact that "everything about this decision is driven toward Mr. Li, and there has not been any consideration (given) to the victim's family."
He said his party still believes Li should be taking his escorted walks in a secure area or be transferred to a more appropriate institution.


Two security officers with 40 hours of police tactical training as well as non-violent crisis intervention training and one clinical staff member will escort Li on his walks.
The walks will be restricted to periods when staffing at the centre is at its peak. The centre has hired two new full-time security officers, bringing its complement to 12. There is also a full-time security manager.
Li's treatment team will assess all risks before issuing each individual pass.
No pass privileges will be approved until all security measures are in place in about two months. For instance, the centre is still consulting security experts about how much distance guards should give Li while he is out on his strolls.
The centre recently installed $400,000 in security equipment upgrades, including more video surveillance and access controls throughout the property.

Beheader could begin outdoor walks in 2 months
Vince Li could begin escorted walks with security staff around the Selkirk Mental Health Centre in about two months.
Exactly two years ago Friday, Li killed and brutalized Tim McLean aboard a Greyhound bus near Portage la Prairie.
Coincidentally, the Selkirk Mental Health Centre, where Li is being treated after being found not criminally responsible for the killing, released its plan Friday for upgrading security to accommodate a Criminal Code Review Board ruling that he be granted escorted walks around the unfenced grounds and to other areas of the complex like the gym, chapel and library.
McLean's father Tim Sr. slammed the timing of the announcement.
"We're very saddened by waking up to that news on Timothy's anniversary (of his death)," he said. "It's very insensitive."
Health Minister Theresa Oswald said the plans were made public Friday because that's when they were finalized.
"We have committed to keep the public informed. (The Selkirk MHC staff) were ready to go with their information today," Oswald said. "If the timing of this information has caused one ounce of additional pain to the McLean family, I want to offer my sincere regret."
The plans for Li's walks include the hiring of two more full-time security officers who will be dedicated to escorting Li and other forensic mental health patients on walks.
The centre's plan for Li also includes allowing the walks only at times when staffing levels are at their peak and assessing the risk before each walk is granted.
The RCMP has been advised of the plans and will be notified when the walks begin.
The new measures should be in place about two months from now, the centre said Friday. The walks can begin once the measures are in place.
Oswald said no fence will be installed around the complex for several reasons, including the fact that the next step in Li's treatment plan specified that he be allowed to walk in an unconfined environment and that it wouldn't be fair to the vast majority of the 230 or so patients at the centre, most of whom are not there as forensic patients.
"Selkirk Mental Health Centre is not a prison and ought not be treated like one," Oswald said, noting doing so would set mental health back 100 years. "The uniqueness of this case has people afraid but we need to be really careful about the stigmatization of mental illness."

Plans for Li to walk
Vince Li could begin escorted walks with security staff around the Selkirk Mental Health Centre in about two months.
Exactly two years ago Friday, Li killed and beheaded Tim McLean aboard a Greyhound bus near Portage la Prairie.
Coincidentally, the Selkirk Mental Health Centre, where Li is being treated after being found not criminally responsible for the killing, released its plan Friday for upgrading security to accommodate a Criminal Code Review Board ruling that Li be granted escorted walks around the unfenced grounds and to other areas of the complex like the gym, chapel and library.
The new measures should be in place about two months from now and the walks can begin once the measures are in place.
The plans for Li’s walks include the hiring of two more full-time security officers, who will be dedicated to escorting Li and other forensic mental health patients on walks.
The walks will only occur at times when staffing levels are at their peak and risk will be assessed before each walk is granted.
The plans do not include the installation of a fence, which Health Minister Theresa Oswald said was due to several reasons.
One is that the next step in Li’s treatment plan specified that he be allowed to walk in an unconfined environment. The other is that it wouldn’t be fair to the vast majority of the 230 or so patients at the centre, most of whom are not there as forensic patients.
“Selkirk Mental Health Centre is not a prison and ought not be treated like one,” Oswald said, noting doing so would set mental health treatment back 100 years. “The uniqueness of this case has people afraid but we need to be really careful about the stigmatization of mental illness.”
Oswald said it would be “foolhardy” not to acknowledge that part of the reason for the security is for Li’s own protection, but that the primary concern is public safety.
Danah Bellehumeur, CEO of the Selkirk facility, said no specific threats to Li’s safety have been received, although they have received some “concerns.”
“It’s just people who didn’t like the decision the (Criminal Code Review) board made,” she said.
Bellehumeur said her facility has tailored its security plans to the specific needs of other patients in the past, but said the level of security being imposed on Li is higher than other patients.
The RCMP has been advised of the plans and will be notified when Li’s walks begin.

Measures announced on tragic anniversary
The fact that security plans for Vince Li’s escorted walks were made public on the two-year anniversary of his crime did not go unnoticed Friday.
Tim McLean Sr., whose son Tim Jr. was brutally killed by Li on July 30, 2008, found out about the plans Friday by reading about them on an online news site shortly after he’d returned from visiting the cemetery where his son was laid to rest.
He was not impressed.
“We’re very saddened by waking up to that news on Timothy’s anniversary,” he said. “It’s very insensitive.”
Tory justice critic Kelvin Goertzen also took issue with the timing.
“I think it’s shameful we’re talking about this today,” Goertzen said Friday. “I think it’s indicative of how all the attention has gone to Mr. Li and not to Tim McLean’s family.”
Health Minister Theresa Oswald said the plans were made public Friday because that’s when they were finalized.
“We have committed to keep the public informed. (The Selkirk MHC staff) were ready to go with their information today. The Selkirk Mental Health Centre committed to come forward with it as soon as possible,” Oswald said Friday. “If the timing of this information has caused one ounce of additional pain to the McLean family I want to offer my sincere regret.”

I completely agree with Li being allowed to have walks outside. He is not legally a criminal, but a mentally ill individual and therefore, should not be deprived of his basic human rights, that even prisoners are entitled to. He is still entitled to his human rights. Confinement can hinder treatment and have adverse effects whereas walking outside and getting fresh air can be beneficial to Li's treatment and mental condition. He deserves that right. He did not kill McLean intentionally and was in a completely different mind state 2 years ago than he is today. He does not pose a danger to the public, especially being escorted by two security officers. He should not be punished for actions which were unintentional. This man is mentally sick and needs help and treatment to overcome and manage his illness. Further depriving him of his rights would not be beneficial. That is merely revenge. This man is mentally ill. Justice has been served. Why would Li run away? He is in a completely different and improved mindset and knows what the severity of his crime was. Society should not be advocating vengeance, execution, deportation or imprisonment of the mentally ill. It appears as if our society lacks any sort of compassion and sympathy towards the mentally ill. What Li did was unintentional. He did not understand the consequences or nature of his action at the time and he was not mentally present. He was completely out of touch with reality and his logic and reason were impaired. 

Apparently someone who has a chemical/electrical imbalance in the brain needs to be kept in a dark cell and never allowed out. Perhaps all people who post thoughts like that should give simular consideration to anyone suffering from a mental impairment, such as Alheimers, certain forms of stroke, Autism,etc, any of which can manifest into violent behaviour.

Sticking your head in the sand, or other places only serves to never change your perspective.

This man needs constant help for the rest of his life, its tragic the events that happened, but that doesn't mean we get to make Mr. Li societies punching bag for something he has no control over. And before anyone says 'he should have stayed on his meds' do a little reading on the matter of compliance and the mentally ill, then you'll understand why he went off his meds.

I can't believe folks who say Li is a criminal.

Li was suffering sever mental illness of the worst kind.

it can happen to anyone.

as disgusting as the comments are, I still pray schizophrenia does not strike someone in your family.

Tim McClean's death was a tragedy. And a failure of our HEALTH services.
there are Thousands of mentally ill persons walking free, free to not take their meds, because YOU, Society cried aloud about the costs....

Well, now the costs are a lot higher because of the willful blindness of society

What's the difference between this case and the case where someone had a seizure while driving and killed someone? Nothing, but I am guessing most of you wouldn't have a problem if the driver was allowed to be free. Double standard here. Mental illness VS physical illness - same thing.

The comments here all point to exactly why there is no respect for people with serious mental illnesses, whether you like it or not, the guy had no idea what the hell he was doing, and its that attitude i.e. the ignoring of his mental illness, that led to him being out in the community in the first place without treatment and to his actions on that bus. He may be seriously mentally ill, but it amazes me at the inability for people who are not to actually think before they open their mouths. If we treated mental health seriously, he would have been treated along time ago and most likely nothing would have happened that night.

You people are over the top. If you want to live somewhere with strict "tough on crime" retribution, why don't you move to Texas? They have it there. They also have a HUGE crime rate. Go figure. It's been repeatedly proven that "tough on crime" does NOT equal "less crime". The cover of this week's Economist is precisely about how prison's in the US are overflowing.

And while you're at it, please, for the love of god, count your blessings that you weren't born with a defect that causes such a horrific mental illness. This man probably lives in his very own personal mental hell every day of his life. Four guards and an occasional walk is fine, IMO. He clearly needs to be kept under guard the rest of his life (barring some miracle cure). But I'm sorry, this was not some heated crime of a vindictive, angry individual. It was the crime of a seriously mentally unwell person. It's not black and white. I am just so grateful that I don't have such horrible fortunes.

I also express the utmost sympathies to the victim's family. Nobody wins in this situation. No matter the outcome of retribution.

I think we need to separate our anger and revulsion at the act that Li committed while psychotic, from the fact that he is ill and needs humane treatment and rehabilitation.

Even as I write this, I feel overwhelming anger and disgust at the tragedy and want to blame somebody. But the rational and educated part of me reflects on the nature of the incident, and feels glad that we are an enlightened society that recognizes and treats illness.

Sorrowful as I feel for the McLean family, I think these walks are the right thing to do.

you miss the main point in our legal system. Li commited no crime. A delusion commited the crime. Li had no intent, murderous or otherwise to cause harm.

The events that unfolded were beyond Li's control. Only meds would have helped, and the Liberal and liberal society has said we cannot force them to take medicine..... Therefore, Society initiated the events that happened.

Society needs to take a look in the mirror and decide how they want to deal with mental illness. Cause Mental Illness is on the rise, and things are gonna get a lot worse if we don't deal with it now

The man is mentally ill, he is not a monster even though he did a monstrous, horrific thing. I would assume he is on some kind of medication and surely this is not the same as him walking free down Portage Avenue.

I agree that this should be left to the experts and not a lynch mob.

What is wrong with you people? I never once dreamed in my life that I lived in a country where so many people were intolerable towards the mentally ill. Have you never come into contact with these people before? He's not responsible for his crimes, he's schizophrenic. You might want to look it up, then perhaps visit a mental hospital and see for yourselves. I really hope that you along with your family does not get diagnosed, but if it happened.. then you'd understand.
I wish Tim didn't have to die, it's a very very disgusting and sad way to go, but it happened and he's not criminally responsible.
Grow up, get a grip, and get educated. The public is so ignorant and uneducated about mental illnesses.

"In his written ruling, the judge said those who are profoundly ill do not have the mental capacity to intentionally commit a crime. "It is clear that since the 19th century the law has distinguished between those persons who commit criminal acts because of a mental disorder and sane persons," Scurfield said."

He was found to be not criminally responsible due to his illness. Read the article.

Schizophrenia is a serious mental illness characterized by a disintegration of the process of thinking, of contact with reality, and of emotional responsiveness. It most commonly manifests as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking with significant social or occupational dysfunction.

Imagine suffering this on a daily basis. Imagine someone you love having to live through this. I bet you'd be a little more sympathetic.

He's a very sick man. Yes, what he did was beyond horrible, but lynching him won't help anyone.

good for him to get this walk .all mentally people should have rights for their health under supervision by guards. we don't act like barbarians to stop the ill people for better treatment in this country. nobody wants to be sick and insane,they deserve a 2nd chance to get back on their feet ( heathy )

I bet everyone on here has family and friends that suffer from mental illness, Yes they vary in degrees of severity, but can any of you actually say you know what it's like to suffer from severe schizophrenic episodes? Get a grip you're all starting to sound a lot like the Republican band wagon.

For those who seem to want Li hanged, drawn and quartered or burned at the stake:

Whether he's mentally ill or just a menace to society, criminally responsible or not, this doesn't happen for two good reasons:

1) Punishment in the justice system is supposed to serve as a deterrant to those who might otherwise wish to commit a crime. This only works on criminals who are "rational" thinkers in the sense that they will weigh the risks and benefits of said crime before deciding whether or not to commit it. This clearly does not apply to a man who lives an entire life in normality, and then suddenly, for no apparent reason and for no personal gain, commits suich an atrocity and then asks to be killed afterwards.

2) So you disregard my first point, and say you'd like to see him pay for what he's done proportionately. In your mind, the justice system is all about vengeance. One doesn't need to know very much history in order to understand why this rage-driven, "burn em at the stake" mob mentality can be problematic. The justice system is supposed to protect citizens first and foremost (although you might argue it hasn't done this well enough as of late), it's purpose is not to enact revenge and fulfil our bloodlust.

To those suggesting that he be deported to China: he can't be. He was a already a Canadian citizen when the crime was committed. AFAIK Canada has no provision for stripping citizenship for committing a crime. They may deport non-citizens, but once you're accepted as a citizen you are the responsibility of Canada...for better or for worse.

Lots of ignorant people on this board putting their two cents in on someone who a legitimate mental health illness. So if your son or daughter was psychotic or hearing voices to do it and killed someone, you would throw them away like a piece of trash? We are in the 21st century , people. Get informed, read something about mental illness. I am sorry for the young man's family but i have a little compassion for what Vince Li is going through too.

According to the courts, this man is a patient, not a criminal. As such, he has been treated not as a criminal, but rather as a high-risk patient. It seems that he is now considered to be not so high-risk a patient. This is a medical evaluation by experienced professionals.
Cases like this are taken very seriously. There is no pressure for patients to progress through a system towards release. Their treatment, restrictions and potential release are guided by medical evaluation, and it doesn't matter to the doctors if the whole process takes 6 months or 142 years. So there is no reason for laypersons to suggest that the patient is not ready fro whatever step if the people responsible for his care think otherwise.
Yes, he did psychopathic things while in a psychotic state. This does not mean that he is some kind of Hannibal Lecter just waiting for the opportunity to strike again. He was very sick and did horrible things. It may that he never gets released and that he lives the rest of his life in a psychiatric institution.
But that doesn't mean he needs to be treated like a rabid animal. As long as he is supervised and he is taking the appropriate medication or other treatment, he is likely not a significant risk to anybody.
Also, I doubt the Selkirk facility is in the middle of town. If he did try to run AND got away from those guarding him, he would not get far - especially when all the people looking for him know the area and he does not.

This man's medical history is no one's business. Bi-Polar doesn't work the way you people think. Things just happen, rage, sorrow, grief, anxiety, happyness, sexual urges, shame... ALL the emotions that all of you have that are normal are exagerated in a bipolar person as much as 10 times. They cannot help it, it just happens. Agreed he is dangerous when there is no one monitoring his meds, but since this can 100% be controlled with the proper meds, as long as someone is monitoring it he is perfectly safe.

It's a wonderfull thing that Canada isn't like the US where they execute Mentally ill 13 year olds for killing the person that sodomized them since they were little.

This man has to live with what he did the rest of his life, he will be in that prison, everytime the guild phase of the emotions cycle in, he relives every evil rotten thing he has ever thought and done since he can remember over and over and over. Don't sit there on your high horses and think that you know what is best for this man. Remember in the Bible it says judge not, unless ye be judged.

After reading a couple pages of comments, it is suddenly easier to see why the treatment of the severely mentally ill is left to trained medical professionals instead of the consensus of a town hall meeting.

Maybe the RCMP should have done something at the time of the attacks. But their lack of action, whether the best decision at the time or not, is not the fault of Mr. Li or the people charged with his care.

Li committed horrifying acts. But a court found that he had no choice in the matter - he did not have the capacity to choose between right and wrong, if he even had the capacity to choose at all. Paul Bernardo was found to have chosen to commit his horrifying acts. That is why Li is treated differently than Bernardo.

For those who think a few walks outside in a limited area under the close supervision of three people for a short period of time before being back behind locked doors again is equal to the freedom most people enjoy, well, they have a funny way of looking at things.

If Li was on the criminal side, and was subjected to involuntary medical treatment and detention for an indeterminate period of time, this would be found to violate the Charter of Rights, and might well be classified as abuse, if not torture. Psychiatric detention is only "getting off easy" to those that have never experienced it.

Most people's definition of justice is extremely frightening. 

It may comfort people to know that the plea of not criminally responsible by reason of mental disorder (NCRMD) is very rarely accepted by the courts. Also, on average a person found to be NCRMD is confined for longer in a mental institution than they would have been confined in a jail if they were simply found guilty.

The fact that the act this person committed was so horrifying seems to be a good indication that he really was suffering from a serious mental disorder when he killed. There could be no reason why a sane person would kill a stranger in such a disgusting fashion while on a bus full of witnesses for no apparent reason.

I expect Li will probably be locked up for the rest of his life. If he is released and harms someone else, not only would the entire NCRMD system be condemned by the general public, but I'm sure that the members of the Criminal Code Review Board would feel a tremendous guilt. The Review Board has no incentive to release Li unless they are positive that he poses zero risk to reoffend.

The system is not broken. Li's act was horrifying and he will not be released in the near future. Allowing him to go on heavily supervised walks will not lead to disaster.

Pretty routine progressive procedures afforded MANY seriously disturbed mental health-violent cases. Some psychiatric hospitals have the means such as high security forensic wards designed to control against harming others/self. As some patients get better or if their risks are reduced, they may earn more privileges.

Canada has a pretty progressive stance in that people like Li will get sentenced under Lt Governor warrant to be seconded to mental health facility instead of a prison.

Many other countries might simply pack him away in a prison without intervention. Its a tough thing to accept given the terrible injustice delivered to the victim, but this kind of approach tends to separate civilized societies from barbaric ones.

Psychiatrists just understand that there's no point in severely punishing someone who can't even understand why they did what they did. It would be like punishing a rabid animal to try to stop it from attacking.

Once a patient has such a serious mental break, it is unlikely that they return to acceptable standards for safe public behaviour. Unfortunately, he'll probably get out and be re-arrested. That's the way, though. The victim in the justice system is always the criminal."

First, you are wrong. Most people return to full functionality. Cite your source, because mine is in interviews with his pyschiatrist which were broadcast.

Second, he is not a criminal, deemed not mentally competent. He is a shizophrenic.

And you, along with 90 others, have commited an offense under the Charter of Rights & Freedoms and Manitoba Human Rights Code.

Discrimination on basis of real or perceived mental disability.

This makes you a criminal, and I would say with your internet anonymity you are highly likely to re-offend.

This man does not deserve to be punished. He is entitled to any human rights as you or I. He is being held in a mental institution because there is a potential for harming himself or others. He did not choose this disease and he is not to blame for not taking his meds because he had not been prescribed any. He had not been diagnosed with schizophrenia prior to this incident because he had not shown symptoms.
He deserves our sympathy.
And yes so does Tim Mclean and his family.

This is a mentally ill human being. You guys are a bunch of barbarian savages with bloodlust in your posts. The man needs walks. Leave it be.

What is mind boggling to me is the ignorance shown on this board. I am not talking about malicious ignorance, but just the amount of people who don`t even understand the first thing about mental illness and the way people are sentenced when they are found to be *not criminally responsible*.

Most don`t even seem know what `psychotic` mean. I have seen it confused with `psychopathic`in the past!

Vince Li is schizophrenic and was expedriencing a psychotic episode when he killed Tim. He is therefore not criminally responsible. He was insane at the time. He is still being held responsible (obviously, he did it) but not *criminally* responsible.

Only people who are found criminally responsible are sentenced to the death penalty.

Mentally ill people who are found `not guilty by reason of insanity` or as they call it here `not criminally responsible`are not killed. They are treated, not punished which is as it should be.

My blood runs cold at the brutal and verbose hatred of the ill that I see here. Any one who has a brain can become mentally ill at any time. Pray to God that you do not ever have to face this in yourself or those you love. Maybe when you are isolated because your family and everyone you know curses you and walks out you will learn some compassion. Until then, you cannot consider yourselves decent or ethical. The inabllity to feel empathy is one of the first signs of psycopatholgy.

If this man had been identified and helped when he first started to come apart...If our system put as much into helping the mentally ill as it does other kinds of disorders...If the mentally ill were not bullied with these kind of comments and all the ones that are supposedly funny, maybe...

Li is not legally a criminal, but a mentally ill individual who should is still entitled to his basic human rights. The majority of the public is seeking only revenge, not justice. Li should not be punished for actions which were unintentional. Li needs mental treatment and counseling, not punishment and further deprivations. We cannot blame Li for what happened; we can only blame schizophrenia. This man needs humane treatment and rehabilitation. The public appears to be largely ignorant and uneducated regarding mental illnesses, which is sad. 

Suicide attempt at Manitoba Youth Centre, raises alarm bells

Suicide attempt raises alarm bells

A suicide attempt at the Manitoba Youth Centre that's left a 15-year-old girl in critical condition is raising alarm bells about mental health services for kids in custody.

"We're not the place for these kids," said the source, who said staff at the MYC are "really, really shaken up" after the girl's attempted suicide.

The source said the girls at the jail come to staff as "used and abused," and treated as if they're disposable. Boys aren't immune either. "I just think (jail is) really damaging a lot of these kids further," said the source.

"Most of these kids should not be in a jail... it's just the wrong place."

MYC staff knew the girl was grappling with depression and had previously tried to kill herself. Those same staff are the ones forced to scramble to deal with many of the centre's population who suffer from mental health issues. The source said girls at the MYC -- who usually number from about 40 to 45 -- especially need attention in a hospital setting, not a locked institution. The last suicide death at the facility was in December 1975.

Manitoba Justice has launched a review into the circumstances surrounding the girl's suicide attempt. An official confirmed she was by herself in her own room in one of the jail's 15-room cottages when the incident occurred.

After a staff member found the girl at about 11:30 a.m. Tuesday, she was rushed to hospital and the facility went into lockdown for hours.

The girl had attempted suicide four to six times before she reportedly harmed herself Tuesday, a source told the Free Press.

The girl had been assessed as a medium risk for suicide and wasn't allowed to have sheets in her room for fear she'd harm herself, said another source. She used an article of clothing to hang herself.

The source said the suicide attempt points to larger issues about the need for more intensive counselling for kids who present a risk.

The source said nurses at the facility are stretched too thin by the many high-needs teens, adding there has to be a dedicated mental health facility to properly treat them.

"They're just overwhelmed... they're all stretched to the limit," said the source. "We're not the place for these kids."

The facility should look at having rooms with better visibility, said the source, so staff can supervise youths more effectively.

The source also recommended a higher number of observation rooms -- specialized rooms where staff monitor youth on surveillance.

There are only four observation rooms right now.

No Manitoba Justice officials would speak to the Free Press Thursday about mental health programs for youths in custody.

Corey La Berge, a Legal Aid Manitoba lawyer who represents young offenders, said MYC staff are excellent and pointed out youth at the centre receive treatment from nurses and psychologists. However, he said, the "criminal legal system" is a "dumping ground" for people who've fallen through the cracks of the mental health system.

He said he dealt with a teenage female client this week who was at the Manitoba Youth Centre but should have been at a hospital.

Bonnie Kocsis, the province's acting Children's Advocate, said her office isn't involved in looking at the tragedy at this point but provincial officials will be.

"I'm sure that everybody out there is going to be asking questions," she said.

The girl was in the care of a Child and Family Services agency and had a troubled family history that included the death of her sister last year. A source who knows the girl well described her life as an "injustice," which included struggles with addictions and repeated trauma.

A hospital official said Thursday afternoon the girl remained in critical condition.

Individuals with mental disorders should never be placed in prisons, as the negative environments often worsen mental illnesses or create new ones. People with mental disorders need treatment and counseling, not prisons, especially teens. Prison for teens are the like the schools of crime, where less violent offenders learn new crime skills and how to avoid detection from other, more high risk/experienced offenders. Prisons are negative environments which do not facilitate rehabilitation or reform. They are damaging, especially for teens. Only the most dangerous and high risk offenders should be in custody; nobody else.

This girl had attempted suicide before her latest attempt and the staff knew she was struggling with depression. Those should have been warning signs and she should have been moved to the observation room, not kept in her secure room. She also should have been receiving mental health treatment and counseling, as opposed to being locked in a cell. I agree there should be a separate mental health facility to properly treat teens and other prisoners with mental disorders. This girl has also struggled with addictions, the death of her sister and repeated trauma which need to be addressed through counseling and treatment as well.

People with mental illnesses should never be imprisoned as the negative environments and lack of mental health services/resources often worsen their disorders. Mentally ill offenders need more intensive treatment and counseling, not prison. Prisons do not facilitate rehabilitation and they are damaging, especially for the mentally ill.      

This teen had previously attempted suicide before the latest attempt and the MYC staff were aware of her struggle with depression. She should have been moved to the observation room with better visibility or better yet, to the mental health hospital. She should have been receiving mental health treatment and counseling as opposed to being locked in a cell with limited access to those services.  

Vince Li's supervised walks will not be appealed by the Crown-- Review Board's decision upheld

Bus killer's supervised walks won't be appealed

The Crown attorney's office in Manitoba has decided not to appeal a decision that granted Greyhound bus killer Vince Li his first small taste of freedom.

The Crown says there are no legal grounds to challenge a ruling by a criminal review board to allow Li short, supervised walks on the grounds of the mental hospital where he is being held.

Li was found not criminally responsible for stabbing and beheading Tim McLean on a Greyhound bus in July 2008.

He has been held in a locked section of the Selkirk Mental Hospital north of Winnipeg.

The Criminal Code Review Board, which examines Li's care every year, decided in the spring that he should be allowed to walk outside, as long as he is with two staff members at all times. It would start at 15 minutes a day and work up gradually to two hours a day.

The decision was a blow to the victim's family, who want Li locked up for the rest of his life.

Manitoba Attorney General Andrew Swan has said Li's walks will not start until the mental hospital increases security measures.

Crown won't fight Li's strolls
The Crown will not appeal a decision to allow Vince Li to stroll the grounds of the Selkirk Mental Health Centre.
Manitoba's deputy attorney general Don Slough said a review of the Manitoba Criminal Code Review Board's May 31 decision determined that there are no legal grounds to appeal the order. The Crown had originally opposed the supervised passes for Li.
"The test was whether the decision was reasonable," Slough said. "There is no legal basis for an appeal."
The board's decision kicked off a political firestorm earlier this month when it said Li could have two brief supervised outdoor passes a day.
Attorney General Andrew Swan said that Li would not receive supervised walks outside of the centre's forensic unit "unless and until" unspecified new security measures were in place that satisfied the government. Those plans are still being formalized.
Swan was also roundly criticized by mental health advocates for his stance.
On Monday, Progressive Conservative Justice Critic Kelvin Goertzen said Swan's tough comments and the decision not to appeal appear to be a case of one hand not knowing what the other is doing within the Justice Department.
"You can't on one day say you don't agree with the ruling and the next day not appeal it," Goertzen said.
Goertzen said Swan has to tell the public what the new security measures are to stay true to his word.
A spokesman for the centre has said it was working on a plan that would allow Li the daily walks without compromising security.
Li was found not criminally responsible last year for the 2008 beheading of 22-year-old Tim McLean on a Greyhound bus near Portage la Prairie. He admitted responsibility for the attack but a judge found him to be suffering from hallucinations and untreated schizophrenia at the time, which left him unable to appreciate or control his actions.
Li is already getting fresh air and limited exercise in a small courtyard attached to the centre's secure forensic unit.
At the original hearing, Dr. Stevenr Kraemer told the board that Li was ready to start receiving supervised passes that let him out of his locked ward.
Kraemer said Li's treatment team endorsed the idea of letting him outside twice a day, up to 15 minutes each time. Kraemer said Li's opportunities could gradually be increased to a pair of daily one-hour leaves.
Li was to be accompanied by one nurse and one security guard at all times, which is an increase of the typical one-on-one supervision other residents receive.
The grounds are not surrounded by any fence or barrier and extra staff would likely have to be hired to accommodate the resources needed for Li, he said.

Crown will not appeal Li's walks
The Crown will not appeal a decision to allow Vince Li to stroll the grounds of the Selkirk Mental Health Centre, a spokesperson said Monday.
The province's Justice Department conducted a thorough review of the Manitoba Criminal Code Review Board's May 31 decision and found that there are no legal grounds to appeal the order, Manitoba's deputy attorney general Don Slough said.
The Crown had opposed the supervised passes for Li.
"The test was whether the decision was reasonable," Slough said. "There is no legal basis for an appeal."
The board's decision kicked off a political firestorm earlier this month when it said Li could have two brief supervised outdoor passes a day.
Attorney General Andrew Swan said that Li would not receive supervised walks outside of the centre's forensic unit "unless and until" unspecified new security measures were in place that satisfied the government. Swan was roundly criticized by mental health advocates for his stance.
The Centre responded it was working on a plan that would allow Li the daily walks and not compromise security.
Li was found not criminally responsible last year for the 2008 beheading of 22-year-old Tim McLean on a Greyhound bus near Portage la Prairie. He admitted responsibility for the attack but a judge found him to be suffering from hallucinations and untreated schizophrenia at the time, which left him unable to appreciate or control his actions.
Li is already getting fresh air and limited exercise in a small courtyard attached to the centre's secure forensic unit.

Escorted walks for Li won't be appealed
The Crown will not be appealing a decision allowing Greyhound bus killer Vincent Li escorted walks outside the walls of the Selkirk Mental Health Centre.
“The test is reasonableness,” Don Slough, director of prosecutions, said Monday. “We determined there is no basis for an appeal.”
On May 31, the Manitoba Criminal Code Review Board approved handing Li passes on the centre’s unfenced grounds, provided he be escorted by two staff members, with at least one having a two-way radio or cellphone in case of trouble.
Li, 42, was found not criminally responsible last year in the July 2008 stabbing death and dismemberment of Tim McLean on a Greyhound bus near Portage la Prairie.
Slough said the review board is made up by experts who applied the law in reaching their decision.
“The only time (the Court of Appeal) would intervene is if they looked at (the decision) and said ‘I don’t know how you could reach that conclusion,’” Slough said.
The review board’s decision was opposed by Justice Minister Andrew Swan, who said last month Li will not be allowed outside the hospital until tighter security measures are in place.
“I am disappointed that there are no grounds for appeal but I have full confidence in the Crown’s analysis,” Swan said through a spokeswoman Monday.
“I have written to the federal minister of justice to ask that public safety receive priority for cases before the (board).”
It remains unclear when hospital officials are expected to allow Li outside. A review board report released earlier this month said the hospital has begun to hire and train security staff who will be designated peace officers trained to pursue and apprehend patients attempting to escape.

I am so glad that the Crown has decided NOT to appeal the review board's decision! The review board is comprised of educated professionals in the area of mental illnesses and they have treated Li, so they would have considered if allowing him short walks would pose a risk to the public safety and clearly, they decided that the risk was minimal. Li is in a completely different state of mind now, than he was two years ago and deserves to be treated humanely and to be allowed short and supervised walks outside. It would be beneficial to his treatment, as confinement can cause further mental health issues such as depression. Li is mentally ill and should not be treated worse than a criminal/prisoner, because legally, he did not commit a crime and should not be referred to as a "killer." Allowing him short and supervised walks, while under medication, would not pose a risk to anybody. It's not like he is going to escape and kill somebody else! This is not a dangerous activity and if he posed a risk to the public, the educated review board would not have permitted these walks. Their opinions should be trusted and upheld. Li needs help, not further deprivations and loss of human rights. 

Many members of the public advocate for capital punishment, deportation, imprisonment and worse. All of these acts for the mentally ill, are barbaric, inhumane and uncivilized. We no longer live in the dark ages! The public is largely ignorant and lacks understanding and knowledge about mental illnesses and simply has a desire for revenge, against this man, who had no conscious understanding of what he was doing and his actions were unintentional. He was not mentally present when he committed the act. Yes, the actions he committed were horrific and gruesome and he stole an innocent life, but it was not his fault! And two wrongs don't make a right. Just because he committed an inhumane act, does not mean that we deny this mentally ill man his basic human rights. There is a difference between justice and revenge. What the public is calling for, is revenge. Vince Li received justice, because justice is fair and appropriate not vengeful. 

I understand why Tim McLean's family would be upset by this decision by the Crown and why they continually seek revenge. What happened to their son was horrific. But they have to remember that Vince Li is mentally ill and was not in control of his actions. I do not blame them for being upset, but Li deserves basic care and human rights and part of that is being allowed a certain amount of exercise and fresh air. It's not like he is being released. It's supervised walks. Even serial killers and the most hardened criminals are granted that much. Li is entitled to his human rights like any other Canadian citizen, exercise and fresh air, being one of them. Besides revenge, there is no acceptable reason to confine this man without access to fresh air and sunshine. Anything less, is inhumane and unacceptable. Being draconian and barbaric, will never bring Tim McLean back to life. God says that we are supposed to love one another, care for one another and forgive. Vince Li deserves this. The victim's family has a bloodlust and thirst for inhumane cruelty. We should not punish the mentally ill for actions which were out of their control. It is humane to allow him supervised walks outside. What the victim's family is advocating for, is barbaric and inhumane. We need to extend Li some human compassion as he attempts to recover a normal and sound mind. Many of the public appear to have no experience with mental illness, but in fact, a paranoid schizophrenia like Li when his brain is behaving normally, is just as horrified as the rest of society about what he did. Schizophrenia can be effectively managed and controlled. I wonder, what is wrong with some people? They are not releasing Li. They are allowing him to receive supervised and short walks. That is humane treatment and even the worst criminals get time outside in the exercise yard. Why should this mentally ill man not get the same if not better treatment and rights?

The Old Testament's "an eye for an eye" retributive justice approach, is considered uncivilized, inhumane and barbaric in today's modern and civilized society with advanced research and knowledge into mental illnesses. That law no longer applies to a civilized society. It is barbaric.

Legally, Li is an innocent person. He is not a criminal and should not be treated worse than one. 

Well folks, the truth of the matter is that all incarcerated criminals, regardless of the crime they did, are allowed to attend outside recreation. Even federal offenders in segregation must be offered at least 1 hour outdoors a day. This is something provided in the Canadian Charter of Human Rights- do your research! This isn't day parole, this is ESCORTED WALKS ON THE PREMISES- he can't leave the facility.

Why would anyone want the crown to appeal this anyway? It's a walk. Who cares? Would you rather it get dragged through court and waste time, money and resources? Some of you people need to get a life and quit complaining about EVERYTHING!

Now, I know some of you seem to think that Vince Li will be allowed to go wherever he bloody well pleases and that he'll most likely show up at your door tomorrow morning wielding an ax, even though the story clearly indicates he'll be under supervision and on the grounds of the facility where he is being kept.

Then again, don't let facts stand in the way of making up all sorts of ridiculousness.

My god. This guy is being escorted outside for a walk..on the grounds of the hospital. Relax people. He isn't going to break out and escape.

I don't believe that Tim McLean, who was known and loved as a compassionate, fair, and tolerant man, would have wished for cruel and/or unusual punishment for Mr. Li, who is clearly a very sick person, not an evil one.

It is unfortunate that the extreme bigotry and prejudice against the mentally ill is so profound in this modern time, as evidenced by the absurd and ignorant comments on this article and all others like it.

If anyone is to blame for this tragedy, it is a system which fails to offer treatment and intervention for mentally ill people prior to incidents like this, and a society far too tolerant of idiots like those posters who propagate prejudice and create a terrible stigma around mental illness which prevents people from choosing to seek treatment.

I understand that the family is angry and could have a negative reaction to this, but the media really went out of control with making this into a story. If he was convicted and sent to a regular jail instead of an institution he wouldn't sit in a solitary cell for the rest of his life either. Being locked up for life doesn't literally mean you are sitting in chains and can't move. It means being stuck in the facility for the rest of his life, and I don't see him getting out anytime soon, if ever.

Vincent Li had a psychotic episode and did what he did, but really, he's still a human being. Most of you would give him less exercise than a cow. Anyone who's ever known someone as ill as Li knows that the medications used to control psychotic episodes (primarily Lithium) have numerous shitty side effects, and he can hardly be blamed for not taking them. I don't hear this kind of outrage when a drunk-driver kills someone, when they're at least as culpable as Li for their actions!

I agree with anyone who believes that Li should be institutionalized for the rest of his life for the public good, but to deny him a walk outside with two trained health care professionals is absurd. A healthier Vincent Li makes for safer surroundings for those same employees, and it surely can't hurt to burn his remaining energy (lithium makes zombies of those who take it).

All you Bible-belters should endeavour to remember to whom vengeance belongs. Hint: it's not you.


"Considering everything that Li did to Tim McLean, how can they say he was not criminally responsible? That I don't understand. Something like that in another country Li would have gotten a death sentence or behind bars for the rest of his life. I guess only in Canada one can get a free pass. How do they know Li is not faking and putting on a good show? This situation is what makes it embarrassing for me to be a Canadian. Get rid of the Trudeau's slap on the wrist laws and make some serious real laws."

"The juridical view of schizophrenia seems profoundly flawed. Mental illness is, to be sure, a terrible disability. But so is violent death. Deluded and hallucinatory as he may have been - and psychiatry has not yet demonstrated reliable methods of diagnosing such states - Vince Li nevertheless committed a terrible murder.

Murder is a criminal act. Li committed murder. He is criminally responsible for the murder of Tim McLean. To find otherwise is a serious error both in logic and in law.

Only a criminal code emasculated by the Trudeau Liberals would exempt a murderer from justice on the grounds that he was "unable to appreciate or control his actions."

This man should be in a prison, not a hospital."

So if he were in prison, without therapy or being monitored for taking his meds, you would be okay with him doing the same thing to another inmate or prison staff? Because that would without a doubt happen. Do your research please.

I'm so tired of the same ignorant opinions. This is why Canada is a nice place to live, because we are not blind to mental illness. Well I guess some of us still are, unfortunately. You cannot fake mental illness to the degree he did for that long. I strongly suggest doing some open-minded research before regurgitating the same ignorant responses everyone else has already made hundreds of times. There is a difference between schizophrenia and a cold-blooded murderer who knew what they were doing. I don't have the room to go into detail, so do the work yourself before making unintelligent comments.

On a side note, I do agree for real criminals there should be harsher sentences, and I do think there should be more safety measures before Li takes these walks, but other than that you are all wrong.

perhaps you should look up mental illness in the dictionary and then compare that with what criminal behaviour is. You seem to be smart enough to use a computer so i assume you can educate yourself on these issues.

Swan didn't have a legal leg to stand on when he overruled the board's decision. Notice how his deputy gave the news that there won't be an appeal? Heaven forbid Swan himself should admit he was freaking WRONG. Let some underling do the dirty work and keep the spotlight off himself. I only wish Swan had appealed and ended up being scolded by a judge for bypassing the legal appeal process.

Now the only unanswered question I have is whether the SMHC is going to comply with Swan's orders to "beef up" security.


I'm glad we have clinical psychologists like you posting on here. It's embarrassing that we have Canadians with the reasoning skills of most posters on here. Maybe we should look at helping our school systems so future Internet posters can make actual meaningful and well thought out comments. But I doubt that's possible.

"How do they know Li is not faking and putting on a good show?"

That would have to have been one heck of a show since his wife disclosed that he was behaving bizarrely years before that, others noticed some odd behaviour, and an Ontario hospital allegedly diagnosed schizophrenia years before too. Was all that history just his diabolical way of setting the stage for committing a future murder? Hardly.

It is unfortunate that the ignorance and lack of understanding surrounding mental illnesses is so profound in this modern time. I am shocked and disturbed by the vengeful and barbaric comments against someone who is clearly mentally ill. Anyone who is compassionate, fair and caring, should not oppose these supervised walks. Nobody should advocate for inhumane and barbaric punishments towards the mentally ill. Advocating for revenge on this man, will not bring the victim back an is useless. Li deserves to have his human rights upheld and allowing him short, supervised walks would not pose a risk to anybody.

everyone else comparing Canada to places like China-If you think their justice system is so great, move there. We live in 2010 here in Canada and most of us have evolved to the point where we understand mental illness. There is a DIFFERENCE between regular criminals and schizophrenics. PLEASE can you people just do your research before you come on this comment board? There's no point even explaining psychology to you. Either you'll take 20 minutes and read some info with an open mind, or you'll live in the 1800s forever.

comment was ignorant and there was little research or thought behind it. I would simply suggest you do some research on schizophrenia. Perhaps talk to people that have it or have known someone with it. You will find there most definitely is a difference between someone like Li and someone like Charles Manson or Paul Bernardo. Some may say they have mental problems too, and I would be inclined to agree. However, they were in their state of mind, aware of what they were doing and that it was wrong. Li on the other hand, was pretty much in a whole other world, one might say. The fact is, there is always a possibility Li may go off his meds if not monitored, that's why unfortunately he should stay locked up for the rest of his life. That being said, prison is not for him, a mental health facility where he can have safe and supervised walks are appropriate.

The fact is, he deserves at the very least what other murderers are allowed, to get walks outside,albeit within a secure area. Now,I also suggest to you that you do some research on schizophrenia. As I mentioned to Elizabeth above, he could always go off his meds, that's why he should stay locked up, but not in prison. It's too much of a risk to inmates and staff if he were to go off his meds.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Vincent-Li-found-not-criminally-responsible--40781652.html

This story mentioned the testimony of two psychiatrists at Li's trial. As to whether he had ever been on meds, I've seen conflicting information. One news source said that when Li was briefly hospitalized in Ontario, he'd been diagnosed with schizophrenia and prescribed medication with no mention of whether he actually took it. I mention that because Li refused treatment and left the hospital. Another source didn't mention he'd been diagnosed or received meds - just that he'd refused treatment.

The most reliable source, IMO, is the review board itself which talked about Li's background in their decision: "He had one psychiatric admission to hospital. In 2005, he went to Ontario from Winnipeg in search of employment. He was picked up by police walking on the highway on his way back to Winnipeg from Toronto and was admitted to William Osler Health Centre in Etobicoke. He was allowed to be discharged against medical advice and returned to Winnipeg, where he did not seek further psychiatric help." Later on where they gave the reasons for their decision they mentioned, "his history of being non-compliant with prescribed treatment" but gave no further details so whether that refers to the Etobicoke incident or not, I don't know.

What exactly do you mean by the "rights of victims"? I often hear the war cry, "What about the victim's rights?" and I think, "Um, what about them?" Tim McLean had a right to life and that was indeed taken from him. But since Tim is gone, what are the rights people think his family is being denied? The stock answer is usually "justice" but what does that mean exactly? It is not a "right" to be able to dictate the punishment and/or treatment of another individual. If it is, someone kindly point me to a reference in the Charter of Rights or the Criminal Code. Otherwise, I'll assume that it's the "right" to have revenge which isn't a right at all.


For gawd's sake ... the man's not a "bus killer."

He was ill and the docs say he's now safe enough to walk around.

To those calling for him being killed at the time of the homocide ... using your logic, we should be killing all the mentally ill as soon as they're diagnosed.

You can't punish the crazy out of him, no matter how much your sense of vengence bays for it.

Fact: This man committed a horrible crime.
Fact: This man was found not responsible for said crime because of a pre-existing mental condition.
Fact: This man is now in a secure mental hospital.
Opinion: This man is not a threat to society in his current locale.

It amazes me. The number of people on here who believe that we should torture and punish this individual by denying him walks outside. Even prison inmates get time outside and are able to socialize with other inmates. It seems almost a human need to feel fresh air in their lungs, maybe feel some sun or some rain. Denying someone these rights seems tortuous to me. Let the man have his walks. You never know, with the walks and some drugs, he might just be able to muster an apology (if he has not already).

I sympathize with the victim's family but I hope they realize that the man is ill not evil. He may need to be in custody for the rest of his life to protect the public and himself from harm but he needs treatment, not punishment.

Seems I'm hearing from the "torch and pitchford" crowd here.

Mr. Vincent Li is a "redeemable" person, unlike the proven psychopaths like Olsen/Bernardo/Holmolka/Kelly Ellard, ad nauseum.

I've dealt "one-on-one" with schizophenic persons, and I wouldn't wish this disease of mental illness on my worst enemy, or anyone else for that matter.

Mental illness affects 25% of all persons at any given time, and 100% of us can succumb to "aggravated emotional upset" at any given time.

Therefore: Let the person who is without 'sin' cast the first stone...

"To keep our community and our children safe he should be placed in prison, he could walk all he wants with no threat to us."

Perhaps you need to do a bit of reading about how mental patients fare in general prison populations. Assuming you care.

"My feelings have nothing to do with bigotry, racism or any other stupid comment so many bleeding hearts are spouting off"....and then you add: "Only in Canada where crime by immigrants is rewarded. Ugh!!!"

Sounds like a lot to do with bigotry and racism.

What does being an immigrant have to do with it?

Folks have to understand before when he migrated to canada,he is a normal person .let's try to have a cool mind to figure out here that he can be controled and even cured with medication. a few walk a day is good for sick people and we have experts to deal what is good for the patients,don't you think so ?

I really do not see what the "fuss" is all about.

Even prisons have outdoor grounds where the most heinous of criminals--even Paul Bernado--can probably hang around.

This guy isn't going to be let out to take long walks along the beach or a park. He's not going to be going to some shopping mall, either. He's not to be released on parole.

He is still institutionalized. This is not about letting him go free. Why is this so hard to grasp for some Canadians? Talk about making a mountain out of a molehilll.

Let's be rational, here. He is not getting walks outside the prison. Firstly, it's not a prison. Secondly, he's not gonna be strolling down Main Street while stopping to chat with the neighbours. He'll be walking on the hospital's property, supervised.

And for those of you who didn't care to read the entire article, it clearly states that these walks wouldn't commence until the facility's security measures were increases.

Lets start by comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Don't confuse a mentally ill person with a known disease, with a criminally insane person. Two different things entirely. Li did not premeditate the crime. It was a spur of the moment thing and he REALLY BELIEVED He WAS BEING THREATENED. Doesn't even come close to a sicko that lures people into their homes and then massacres them! You should read something more serious than the funny papers. Idiots like you are the reason laws exist. To protect the innocent. Sure he killed a man, but when he did, he was not in control of himself and was /is suffering from an illness that can be treated and that can let him live a normal life. The thing is, now that he is on treatment, he knows exactly what he did and is just as horrified as any of you are, and more so because he has to live with the FACT that he did it, it was not a dream, it was not a fantasy, it was real. Most of you really should read the whole article before you shoot off at the pie hole.

He is only allowed to be outside in a fenced area under supervision and not allowed to be at large with the public.
Mental illness is misunderstood. I DO NOT condone what Li did but caging him up in the dark is not the way to go.

"Today, a walk in the park; next year, at this time, perhaps a supervised stroll to the mall; the year following, an unsupervised visit to the local bus station, and on and on it goes in the interests of rehabilitating the unsound mind."

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I love all these comments that are so sure that this man will be released in a year. All these comments that are complete and utter fantasy. Anybody who has one iota of interest in dealing with fact rather than ungrounded opinion will know that Mr Li will in all liklihood spend far more time in confinement than anybody who kills, not because of mental illness, but out of greed, or hatred or revenge. Mr Li will NOT be strolling the malls or the bus stations ever again.

They are NOT taking him for a stroll in the park today. They are simply taking him outside the building so he can get some sun and fresh air, and had you bothered to read the article, they are not doing it until they increase the security on the grounds. The ONLY reason Mr Li has not had these priveleges up until now, the exact same priveleges by the way that every scumbag murderer in the country from Paul Bernardo to Clifford Olsen get from their first day in prison, is because the prison he is in doesn't have a secure perimeter.

While there are hundreds of comments getting thousands of thumbs up that are dead certain Canada's penal system is so terribly broken, anyone who bothers to do a comparison with the rest of the world will realize in two minutes that our system works better than pretty near any country on the planet when it comes to crime rates and repeat offenders, and that it just keeps getting better every year. But by all means, focus on the exceptions rather than the norm. Facts just ruin the fun.

The amount of bigotry, hatred, and ignorance in most of these comments is breathtaking. It seems most of us still think it's okay to discriminate against and marginalize the mentally ill; I, for one, am sick to death of it. Try reading this pamphlet from the Manitoba Schizophrenia Society, and then look back at your comments and see what you think about what you wrote.

http://mss.mb.ca/mss_v1/booklet.pdf

I don't understand why people post such things as:

mountie: "Wonder if all the people that think Li is harmless as long as he takes his meds would be willing to have a nap next to the guy on a Greyhound Bus?"

Dirty Ernie: "Do you want this guy to be your neighbor? Do you want him living next to you, your kids, your wife, when he forgets to take his pills? He will be somebody's neighbor."

Tired of being taxed: " It will be a terrifying day when he's released in public and strolling our streets."


You see in all of the articles I have read regarding this case, not once has it said that Li will ever see the light of day. After all, someone with an illness which causes such severe outbreaks of violence will never be released from Selkirk. There is nothing wrong with allowing him supervised walks around the facility, since it will most likely be his home for the rest of his life.

Reading other comments saying that he should be held accountable for his actions, these commenters are clearly very ignorant in regards to mental illness. I personaly know someone with schizophrenia, and once they did have a mildly violent outburst toward someone before they recieved medication. The person they acted out against had no hard feelings afterwards as he realized during the occurance that this was not the same person. I unlike other ignorant posters can understand what it means to have such a mental illness.

I completely agree with you, although I am concerned he may be released at some point. It seems most people either lean to one extreme or the other, and both are very harmful. He cannot be held criminally responsible for his actions, and should be allowed supervised walks. However, he shouldn't be released ever, because he will always have that mental illness and he may become violent because of that mental illness. Not everyone with schizophrenia would do what he did. It's a very sad situation for all those involved. However, some people have this strange idea that schizophrenia can be cured, and therefore he should someday be allowed back into society. It can't, it can only be controlled, and even with medication it's not 100%. So although he should stay there forever, we have so many bleeding hearts running this country that may not be so. Bleeding hearts who also do not understand mental illness, only from the opposite point of view. They think that if he takes his meds he will magically be cured. It doesn't work that way, and although he should most definitely be allowed walks he should never be free. I have a very strong feeling he will one day be let free.

What's screwed up is that people would actually want someone to continue being sick. His mental illness was not being managed when he committed this act; yes he deserves to be held accountable, but he also deserves to be physically well. If someone had diabetes in prison should we not allow them to take their insulin? Mental health is a real issue, it's not something he was faking to get a lighter sentence. The victims family can rest assured that he will never be left alone ever again, which is prison in and of itself. What if it was your husband, son, brother, dad, uncle, friend- perspectives change.

If the family can't handle him walking outside they will never be free from what he did. They need to find forgiveness. This doesn't mean that they think it's right or that they don't miss their son. It means that they decide to stop dragging Li's actions around with them their entire lives and learn to live free. Tim doesn't have a choice of life or death. His family does.