Province now bans Li`s previously approved escorted walks -- Violation of human rights

Province bans Li`s walks -- Overturns ruling that approved escorted outings for Greyhound killer

Manitoba Attorney General Andrew Swan stepped in Thursday to shut down a decision that would have allowed Vince Li to leave a locked forensic unit for short periods of time, saying it is "contrary to the interests of public safety."

Swan's overruling of the Criminal Code Review Board's decision means Li will not be allowed to stroll the Selkirk Mental Health Centre's grounds until the facility beefs up security measures.

What nearly occurred

THE Criminal Code Review Board ruled the Selkirk Mental Health Centre may grant Vince Li supervised hospital-grounds pass privileges, subject to the following provisions:
-- Passes start at 15 minutes and increase incrementally to a maximum of one hour, twice daily;
-- Treatment staff are of the opinion that his condition is stable and it would be appropriate and safe for him to leave the locked ward;
-- While he is away from the locked ward on any supervised hospital-grounds passes, he is to be escorted at all times by two staff members who are equipped with either a two-way radio or a cellphone;
-- Security staff at the hospital are informed when each grounds pass is to occur.
The board also ruled that if Li were required to leave the centre's grounds for any reason that he be escorted by an armed police officer.

Swan would not specify what types of security measures would be considered before Li would be allowed outdoors. He said that would be left up to the centre, subject to government approval.

"The Department of Health and our government will make sure that there are appropriate steps taken to protect public safety before Mr. Li is anywhere other than inside that locked forensic unit," Swan told reporters.

Li was found not criminally responsible last year for the 2008 beheading of 22-year-old Tim McLean on a Greyhound bus near Portage la Prairie. He admitted responsibility for the attack, but a judge found him to be suffering from hallucinations and untreated schizophrenia at the time, which left him unable to appreciate or control his actions.

On Thursday, the Criminal Code Review Board gave Li -- over the objections of a Crown attorney -- clearance to start receiving supervised passes from his locked, high-risk ward.

But Swan said the escorted passes "will shock the conscience of Manitobans and indeed all Canadians."

He phoned and wrote federal Justice Minister Rob Nicholson to voice his concerns about a decision-making process that, he said, did not have public safety as its paramount concern.

"We strongly urge that the Criminal Code of Canada should be amended to ensure that such a demonstrably unfit disposition cannot be made," Swan wrote in his letter.

The Conservatives renewed demands that a fence be erected at the centre to safeguard the community and, failing that, that Li be sent out of the province.

Late last year, Manitoba justice officials decided to send Earl Joey Wiebe, a mentally ill killer, to a facility outside the province because they could no longer control him at the Selkirk centre. Wiebe was caught hiding a knife, drugs, alcohol and cash in the ceiling tiles of his private room at the medium-security facility. He also escaped in 2006, spending three weeks on the run, and was later involved sexually with a psychiatric nursing student on the grounds of the facility.

But mental-health advocates decried the political rhetoric, saying it stigmatizes people who have a mental illness. They said if a fence were to be built around the facility, it would send treatment in Manitoba back to the Dark Ages.

The executive director of the Manitoba Schizophrenia Society applauded the review board's decision, calling it "reasonable, just and fair."

Chris Summerville said he has met Li and would allow his 24-year-old daughter to walk the grounds of the Selkirk institution with the man.

"If we want to make Selkirk Mental Health Centre a prison, we will be the most archaic province in Canada," he said.

Annette Osted, executive director of the provincial College of Registered Psychiatric Nurses, said she is concerned that politicians are failing to provide leadership on this issue. "As a matter of fact, they're promoting fear and misunderstanding," she said.

Osted said it's "very understandable" the issue of outdoor passes would provoke fear and anger among Tim McLean's friends and family and that there would be public concern. "But it's totally unacceptable that leaders react to emotions rather than to facts when they make decisions that affect us all," she said, noting 20 per cent of people will need some sort of "mental-health assistance" in their lifetimes.

Swan said the Crown will study the review board's decision to see if there are grounds for appeal.

Tory justice critic Kelvin Goertzen said the government should have been prepared for the review board's decision. "I'm surprised that there isn't a specific response in terms of what's going to be done," he said Thursday.

McLean's family and friends filled a courtroom Monday when the review board heard evidence as to Li's suitability for outdoor passes. They said the risk of something going wrong is too high. "I am shocked the whole facility isn't surrounded by a fence," McLean's mother, Carol de Delley, said at the time.

This is a complete violation of human rights! Li is a mentally ill individual, who is not a criminal and not a prisoner, and should NOT be treated worse than one. Denying him these rights means that the province is only interested in revenge and vengeance and not in facilitating rehabilitation of the mentally ill. Li is a different person than he was when he killed McLean. He was a victim of his mental disorder but now that he has been attending treatment and programming and taking medications, he is much less dangerous and letting him in the yard, supervised, would not have posed a risk to anybody. Denying him these rights of sunshine and fresh air, is inhumane and uncivilized. Confinement in his room, will not facilitate or improve his condition. He needs to be allowed sunshine. Confinement can also cause further mental illnesses, such as depression. 

In a previous article by the Free Press, Andrew Swan said:

"However, Justice Minister Andrew Swan said he cannot dictate terms to the review board, an independent body operating under federal law. And he accused the Opposition of 'fear-mongering.'"

"The board's decisions are based on rules set out in the criminal code, Swan said. 'Our government cannot overrule what's contained in the criminal code of Canada,' he said."

"Swan said Tuesday that the province expects the board to 'make a decision that is consistent with the law.'
An attorney general, he said, should not demand that a judge or tribunal or independent party come to a particular decision. '(That) is simply wrong and, more than that, it strikes at the very heart of the democratic system that we enjoy in this province and this country.'"

So, three days ago it was wrong to overrule the board and the criminal code, and now suddenly it is all fine and good! That is crazy. Andrew Swan is now the one who is fear mongering and giving in to the public`s outrage fueled by the media and their over-sensationalization of this ruling. This is disgusting to deny Li those rights. Way to feed the ignorance and stigma surrounding mental illness! The review board and doctors are educated and informed about mental illness and if they thought escorted walks, would pose a risk to the public, they would not have allowed them! Cant you just let people do their jobs Swan! Public opinion, based on zero facts about mental illnesses, should NOT be taken into the board`s decision making processes.

Mental illness was the cause of slaying

If I were Tim McLean's mother I wouldn't want Vincent Li to see the light of day.

That's why we don't allow victims (or their families) to decide punishment.

Li killed her son in such a brutal manner that news of the crime flashed around the world. It was an unspeakable act of depravity and violence. He was found not criminally responsible for the 2008 Greyhound bus slaying.

The judge found him to be suffering from hallucinations and untreated schizophrenia.

When he sentenced Li, the late Justice John Scurfield said: "Clearly there is a logical reason for the law, and indeed for society, to distinguish between persons who are sane and those who are not."

In January 2009, his treating physician said he should be kept indefinitely at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre. Dr. Stanley Yaren said there was no chance Li could be released immediately back into the community.

At the time, Yaren warned that Li hadn't been studied yet "outside of an extremely controlled and regimented environment."

Li got close to his first flicker of freedom this week. The resulting maelstrom changed all that.

There were those who thought he should be locked up for life. Indeed, there were those who bemoaned the end of the death penalty. But Li, who said he was acting under commands from God to attack a "demon," was sent to a locked ward in Selkirk.

Early Thursday, it appeared he'd be able to walk the hospital grounds for 15 minutes twice a day. He'd be accompanied by two staff members, according to a ruling from a Criminal Code Review Board. Eventually his privileges might be extended to one-hour passes, twice a day, as long as there were no problems.

But Thursday morning, Justice Minister Andrew Swan said Li would not be allowed to breathe fresh air until security measures were beefed up.

"In our view this order is contrary to the interests of public safety and seriously undermines public confidence in the Canadian system of justice," he said. It was also a publicity disaster, something Swan and his team surely recognized. If the NDP is seen as catering to a madman, well, you can only imagine the trouble that would cause it come next campaign.

Most of you have never visited the Selkirk Mental Health Centre. It has sprawling grounds, lush grass and no fences. It looks like a park. It is here that Li would walk, accompanied by a security guard and a nurse. The staff would carry two-way radios or cellphones.

The board decided to give him a shot at leaving his locked ward.

Now, we don't know how Li is reacting to treatment. We can assume that the proposed small lifting of his restrictions indicates he's taking his medication and responding well. His treating psychiatrist says Li listens well to staff, has attended required programming and treatment and has an understanding of the impact of his crimes. He still occasionally suffers hallucinations.

He's got a long way to go before he gets well, if indeed that's possible. If he goes off his meds, who knows what might happen? What's getting lost in some corners of this debate is the fact that Vincent Li is a sick man, one who did not make a conscious decision to kill. He is ill and that's what caused the murder.

We all want to be safe. The idea a psychotic killer might escape from the hospital grounds is terrifying. But we need to understand that the goal of his treatment is to have him leave that hospital some day. He is supposed to get better. He just might get better.

It doesn't matter what you feel: He did not receive a life sentence and was found not criminally responsible.

The medical system is trying to pick up the pieces and put Vincent Li together again. If the hospital (and our justice system) aren't prepared to let him out for a walk, how are they ever going to deal with the eventuality that someday, however remote, Li will again be allowed to take a bus by himself?

It is inhumane and uncivilized to deny Li the human right to go outside for sunshine and fresh air. He should not be treated worse than a prisoner, because legally, he is not a criminal. He should not be further punished and deprived for actions which were completely out of his conscious control and which were unintentional. Sunshine would help Li in improving his mental condition. Confinement can cause further mental health problems, such as depression and does not facilitate rehabilitation and treatment. Allowing Li supervised walks for 15 minutes, would not have posed a risk to anybody. He would have been supervised!! He cant just walk away.  Li was responding well to treatment and medications and participating in programs and there was absolutely no good reason to deny him basic human rights. That is cruel and unusual punishment for actions which he was unaware of. 

The purpose of our criminal justice system is rehabilitation and treatment, not punishment or revenge. Li is still a human being and needs to be treated as one, not an animal or a criminal. We should not deny Li the right to sunshine and fresh air, 15 minute supervised walks outside on the grounds of the mental facility. Being able to go outside for sunshine and fresh air is beneficial to Li`s recovery and treatment. We cannot be civilized if we make rules based on anger and revenge, as opposed to reason and logic. We should base our decisions not on public opinion because they are misinformed about mental illnesses, but on the facts. We must always keep rehabilitation and treatment in mind. 

The intolerance and ignorance surrounding people with mental disorders is disgusting, staggering and jaw-dropping. It would probably be beneficial for some of these people calling for Li`s execution, revocation of citizenship, imprisonment and deportation, to be hauled in front of a human rights tribunal and punished as criminals! There is too much stigma surrounding mental illnesses. 

The public is misinformed about the whole situation. They clearly, do not understand the situation. Li would have been supervised by two staff members, with communication abilities and devices, watching his every move. To me, this would seem reasonable. He would not pose a risk to anybody and he is much less dangerous than he was when he killed McLean, after participating in treatment and programming. It is reasonable, because his treatment team recommended it. They are educated about mental illnesses and know best. They should be trusted in their decision to not put the public safety at risk. These people value their careers and would not allow these outings unless they were certain that the risk was minimal. By overturning their decision, we are basically saying that the review board and doctors cannot do their jobs and are not trusted to do their jobs. Li cannot go off his meds while on 15 minute walks. He would not have posed ANY risk to the public and I am disgusted that the province listened the misinformed public opinion on this case, as opposed to the educated doctors and review board members! 

So much intolerance. The man is schizophrenic. He has little concept of reality and certainly none that people without the disease understand it as, and that's on a good day. The thought of living out life in that condition is more horrifying than any prison sentence.

But there's no story here. Of course he should be allowed to get up and move around. Every criminal has that right... until Stephen Harper in one of his usual flares of brilliance introduces legislation to prevent convicts from standing or walking.

The public is ignorant and uneducated about mental illnesses and we need to combat that ignorance and stigma surrounding them. 

It appears that there are a great deal of Canadians out there that have very little intellectual knowledge of mental illness. This man cannot be compared to or treated like any serial killer, murderer, rapist, child molester etc. He has a complex situation of chemical imbalaces which affect, obviously, his ability to distinguish true/untrue. He is a sick individual just as sick as someone with cancer. Enjoy your walks Li.

Your comments stand out as being chock full of ignorance. You really don`t understand mental illness at all, that is painfully obvious. The fact that you call a person suffering from paranoid schizophrenia `vermin` only shows that you are not qualified to make informed comments on this situation. You can make comments of course, but they are not informed comments, they are just emotional ramblings of someone who has no knowledge about the illness involved or how it can affect a person.

How would you feel if a loved one of yours came down with a serious mental illness that was out with their control, and uninformed ignorant people with zero knowledge decided your child was `vermin` whose life was `wretched`, and that they did not deserve any help! Thankfully it is not these people who make these decisions. Its highly trained and educated people who know what paranoid schizophrenia is about, which I am afraid is more than we can say for you.

I will answer your question - if this had happened to my son I am absolutely postitive that I would feel the same way that Tim`s family feel because my emotions would be so powerful lthat I would not be able to think straight, or see any other perspective than my pain. That is why the families of victims are not the people designated to make the decisions about how someone like Li is to be treated and where. This is not about revenge for the McLeans (because revenge is not going to help them anyway, even if they think it is). It is about how best to deal with a person who is very ill and needs help. We help sick people in this society. We are not savages in this country, although after being on this thread for a while I am beginning to wonder about many of you.

The public has little understanding and sympathy for those with mental illnesses. We need to trust the review board to make the right decision. 

"All the bleeding hearts on here better wake up! It makes ZERO difference to the family of the victim if this guy was mentally ill or not! Is this supposed to soothe or alleviate the family's suffering in some way?"

Speaking of waking up, you need to wake up to the fact that the law does not exist to provide you or anyone else with revenge. As far as soothing or alleviating victims' suffering, that is not the function of the law nor of the penal system. The law is, or should be, purely pragmatic. Soothing is the job of counselors, victim relief agencies, etc.
If you want revenge, get yourself a voodoo doll or pray to some Old Testament deity or something like that. Or move to a country where you have public stonings or whatever. In a civilized society, even the worst of the worst should be treated in a civilized manner. Not coddled. But if we get all emotional and sacrifice certain core values for the sake of revenge-lust, then the whole society is degraded.

People seem to have forgotten. Mr. Li is a human, and will be treated humanely. When we stop doing that, we can look to other countries where they treat the mentally ill inhumanely and see if we like the company we are keeping. I see poster here moaning about the cost of keeping the mentally ill, and recall the same wording used in the recent series, Love, Hate and Propaganda. Careful what you wish for.

"All the bleeding hearts on here better wake up! It makes ZERO difference to the family of the victim if this guy was mentally ill or not...and I bet all you bleeding hearts would feel the same way if he had done this to one of your loved ones! At least be forthright enough to admit that."

In civilized countries we have trials, the victim's family doesn't determine guilt and administer retribution. If you don't like that, why not move to a country like Somalia where that is the norm? If the rule of law upsets you so much?

"All the bleeding hearts on here better wake up! It makes ZERO difference to the family of the victim if this guy was mentally ill or not! Is this supposed to soothe or alleviate the family's suffering in some way? At the end of the day, he still did what he did - and it was horrific! The reason he did it, really is irrelevant because to suggest otherwise is to attempt to minimize the impact of what he did to the victim and subsequently, the family! These people have suffered beyond what most of us will ever have to endure in our lifetimes and you are screaming "ah, it wasn't his fault, there there, he's sick!"

Mental illness is no excuse for what he did. When he murdered this poor young man, he lost any rights in society. This vermon doesn't deserve a cent to support his wretched life..............and I bet all you bleeding hearts would feel the same way if he had done this to one of your loved ones! At least be forthright enough to admit that."

"This vermon"

NO human is vermin (unless you meant to say he's from Vermont?). Mentally ill, too dangerous to allow freedom, yes. If you became mentally ill, and a danger to society, we might incarcerate you - but I would never refer to you as subhuman. Typical for a self-righteous anti-abortion protester, even a zygote is a human life, we must defend all life, etc - unless we in our righteousness deem that life to be scum, then it's time for a lynching or bombing.

Mental illness is not an excuse for what he did but it is the reason. There's a BIG BIG difference. But that difference is unfortunately lost on the twisted and perverse faction of society desperate for vengeance and revenge.

He isn't being released. Even Clifford Olson gets fresh air every day. I don't think he should be let out of the hospital into the community but we are a civilisation that prides ourselves on how just we are. Let the man breath some air. Now if he were going into the community that would be a different question.

A remarkable display if infantile logic compose the majority of posts here. The capacity and appetite for brutality and revenge, under the the guise of some perverted form of justice, are truly shocking.

It's becoming clearer to me now why there is such a large and enthusistic audience for tyranny and chaos. At the core, we are just wild animals.

As a society, our descent in to savagery appears never more than a few heart-beats away. Lord of the Flies, anyone.

Well, well, well, it appears it is really true. There ARE trolls on this website. People who post outrageous remarks just to get a rise out of someone. Let me remind myself of that more often! Yet, there also appears to be people who truly believe it would be a better world if we all just went BACKWARDS to draconian justice. Hang 'em high and all that. I'm thankful that our current laws allow us all to have opinions as long as hatred is not incited as per our hate laws. Still I shake my head at the many people who confuse justice with vengeance and the many who don't bother to fully read or comprehend the news item that they then spout off about.

I feel really sad to see so many vindictive comments here, Canada seems to have slid backwards into a compassionless gutter.

The guy is locked up forever already, why not let him walk around a little with guards? People just don't understand mental illness at all. It's not like he planned it. His mind is broken and doesn't work. It's like blaming a child that doesn't know any better.

Punishment is one thing but do we really need to be cruel and keep him locked up and tied down for the rest of his life? I am so sorry for the family and friends but that doesn't make me act inhuman myself. If professional doctors recommend it then I support thier expert opinions.

The brutal ignorance and violent revenge lust expressed on these boards are particularly disturbing.

This is the comment I posed on timslaw.ca::
Actually Rob, people in prison do get rights to go outside. Li is not legally a criminal and should not be treated worse than one. He should not be punished and deprived for actions which were completely out of his control and unintentional. Letting him outside on supervised walks, would not pose a risk to anybody! If it did, the doctors and review board would not have ruled in the manner they did. Li is much less dangerous than he was when he committed the act and is a completely different person. To deny him the basic human right of sunshine and fresh air, is inhumane and uncivilized. Being allowed to go outside would help facilitate his rehabilitation and treatment as confinement can often cause further mental illness, such as depression.

Lisa: Li was not convicted of murder, he was found not criminally responsible of the crime. That means, legally, he is not considered to be a criminal. His mental illness is not an excuse, it is a reason. His actions were completely out of Li`s conscious control and were unintentional. He was not mentally present and was not aware of his actions, therefore, he should not be further punished and deprived. Letting him outside on supervised walks would not pose a risk to anybody. And if he did have an episode, he would simply be taken inside by the two staff members supervising him. It`s not like he is going to run away without somebody seeing him and murder somebody! He is not the same, dangerous person he was two years ago and we should not treat him as if he is. 

The doctors and review board members should have been trusted in their decision. Allowing Li to have supervised walks, would not have posed a risk to anybody. He is not the same person and is not in the same mental condition as he was when he committed that horrific act. He is much more stable and much less dangerous. The government should not overrule that decision to cater to the misinformed public opinion regarding mental disorders. To deny Li the human right of sunshine and fresh air, is inhumane. 

"This is an issue of public safety, not public ignorance. Li is a threat to the public and has a proven history of what he is capable of. Even if the doctors find a balance of medicines that minimize his symptoms, he will always will be a threat. Because, all he has to do one day is say, hmmm....I feel good today, I don't need these meds anymore, plus all they do is make me feel tired all the time. The second that happens and it could easily, someone else could be his next victim.

You can debate a million issues surrounding this, but it all comes down to if Li stops taking his medications, the public is then at great risk of harm. Thinking this way does not make one ignorant, it’s more common sense actually. Despite what all the bleeding hearts in this country want to believe, the fact is, yes sometimes the greater good of society has to come before the needs of one person. Especially, when that person is for lack of a better word a ticking time bomb just waiting to go off again."

Yes he would be a threat to the public if he was released. However, that is not the issue here. He would not pose any risk to the public by being allowed 15 min walks, supervised! He is a different person than he was when he committed that act. He is much more mentally stable and much less dangerous. Confinement will not help facilitate his mental condition and can cause depression and other mental health issues. 

I love how so many people are 'outraged' at this development. "Our justice system is too relaxed!", "Lock up those criminals!", "Li should never see the light of day!". What ignorant garbage. He is not being freed, not even close. He would be getting 15 mins of being able to be outside, and be escorted by two people, one of them armed. He is schizophrenic, and was not held responsible for his actions. He did not understand the nature of his actions, he was not mentally present, was not aware of what he was doing, his actions were unintentional and were completely out of his control. Everyone is so quick to look for someone to blame for this whole mess, when really sometimes there is nothing, or no-one, to blame. You can only blame the mental illness. You cannot blame the person. He was a victim of his mental disorder. 

The fact of the matter is that the decision to let Li out of his cell to be able to go outside was made by a board made up of psychologists, professionals in the field of mental illness. How cocky are some of you people, to declare their decision is wrong? Don't you think that they have taken Li's past actions into account? What he did is pretty hard to forget. Clearly, they decided that Li was of a minimal risk to escape of re-offend while on supervised walks. This would not pose any risk to the public. 

Yes Tim McLean died a horrible death. But will mistreating someone who is ill bring McLean back to life? People have to remember that this was not a conscious decision on Li's part. He was suffering from hallucinations. Very realistic ones. His actions were unconscious and involuntary and the mentally ill need to be treated in a humane and civilized manner, with rights, respect and dignity.

We can't all paint criminals with the same brush here. Has anyone thought about how Vincent Li feels? How would you like to have been killing a demon in the name of god, only to find out that you had beheaded someone, and eaten their flesh? I would be quite inconsolable I think. 

If I were Li`s lawyer, I would be filing a Charter violation by the government. Denying him the right to walk outside is a clear violation of human rights, "cruel and unusual punishment." Plus, the government cannot overrule the criminal code. The province is stepping over their bounds and is clearly not acting with any facts, reason or logic. They are catering to the misinformed public opinion. In this case, ignorance and revenge overcame reason, which is sad for a civilized society.  

An oppertunity to go outside might be very benificial to him and his healing, I hope that he soon gets the chance to walk on grass and feel sun on his back, even in provincial and federal jails, there is the oppertunity to go outside sometimes. It is unnatural and unhealthy to be without grass, air, and sunshine.

The intolerance around people with mental disabilities is staggering and jawdropping. It would probably be beneficial for some of these people calling for Li's execution, revocation of citizenship, and deportation, to be hauled in chains before a human rights tribunal and be punished as criminals.

As someone who suffers from a mental condition, I can understand why people are afraid to seek help. The stigma is just too great.

For gosh sake, we're talking about an escorted walk -- escorted by two staff for a few minutes a day. Let the man have some fresh air. We're not talking about letting him go free. Leg irons? Geeze, are we living in the 19th century? Nice try Lindor, but I blame you and the media for whipping up this frenzy in the first place. When you write: "That's why we don't allow victims (or their families) to decide punishment" is sure rings hollow for me. You've been siting on the sideline of the criminal justice system pronouncing judgment for years. Now you're preaching restraint and perspective? Puh-lease!

Regardless of whether or not Vince Li will ever be freed, there are basic human rights issues at play here. Most inmates in the federal system are allowed some periods outside unless they are being punished for an offence committed in the prison. Being able to get outdoors is essential for both physical and mental health and is considered a basic human right.
Not having a secure outdoor area at the hospital in Selkirk for patients to access is IMHO an abuse of their basic human rights. This applies to Li as well as any other patients of the hospital.
The need here is to balance the human rights of the patients with the need to protect society from those deemed too dangerous to be allowed freedom.
I'm surprised that a secure area for patients to access has not been established there already. It's just one of those things that one would think would naturally be incorporated into the design of such a hospital.
Unless of course the governing mental health doctrine of this province is that mental health patients should be forced to live in a punitive environment, which seems to be the case. 

If I were Li`s lawyer, I would be filing a Charter violation by the government. Denying him the right to walk outside is a clear violation of human rights, "cruel and unusual punishment." It is completely inhumane and unnecessary to deny him the right to go outside, supervised! He would not pose a risk to anybody as he is in a much better mental state than he was two years ago, and is far less dangerous! Plus, the government cannot overrule the criminal code. The province is stepping over their bounds and is clearly not acting with any facts, reason or logic. They are catering to the misinformed public opinion. In this case, ignorance and revenge overcame reason, which is sad for a civilized society.   

As I see it wrote: The fact that he tried to escape suggests to me that he was fully aware that what he had done was a criminal act…. He obviously knew that he did something criminal.

I’m not sure how much exposure you’ve had to the mentally ill, but there are 4 major types of schizophrenia. Just because someone isn’t catatonic or disorganized in thought doesn’t mean that they know they are doing something criminal.

Paranoid schizophrenics are able to reason and think logically within their reality. From your perspective, his actions clearly indicate that he was aware that he was killing an innocent person and that there were police officers outside trying to apprehend him. In reality, he could have been perceiving anything. If you are killing a demon and hell’s minions are outside trying to stop you…yeah, you will still try to escape, taunt them, etc… But you don’t think you are doing anything wrong. In fact, they are often thinking the opposite.

I have been called every name in the book. I have been part of more conspiracies than you can imagine. I’ve been an angel of mercy, a mobster, the voice of the devil. Those who thought I was good clung to me. Those who thought I was evil ran from me. You cannot speculate about what was going through his mind and what his actions meant.

He is not going to walking around town. He is going to take walks around the grounds of a mental health facility followed by two armed guards. It's not a stepping stone to an eventual release. He will never be released this incident will continue to stick in the minds of Canadians. The public outcry of a release would manifest to political suicide for anyone even thinking about putting him on the streets. Whats a little fresh air and sunlight going to hurt?

This is ridiculous. Stop him from going on a 15 minute walk that was supposed to be supervised? Where is he going to go, even if he tries to get away? It's not like Selkirk is the size of Winnipeg, where he might be able to run. I don't hold the NDP accountable for this choice, as it was the majority who demanded he be kept in confinement.

I'm glad that the public decided to burn Li at the stake, when most people have no idea that HE WAS NOT IN CONTROL OF HIMSELF WHEN HE KILLED TIM MCLEAN.

He wants to apologize to Tim's family for what he did. Not that the family will even accept his apology, which is understandable, but you'd think that something like this would reinforce the fact that Mr. Li never meant to do what he did, and maybe, JUST MAYBE, he is in fact a good person who was held at the mercy of his disorder, and needs help.

Nope, bring on the lynch mob! Punish the man who is incredibly sick and needs help! Forget him! We have no obligation to help our sick citizens! He's the incarnation of evil! Throw him in jail and let him rot with his mental illness!

Pathetic.

P.S. - This man was so debilitated by schizophrenia, he can't even believe that he cannibalized Tim. And you think someone who was this out of it meant to kill Tim just for the fun of it? Oh, and before anyone tries to say he's lying, I think the psychiatrists have a better idea of whether or not he was and is telling the truth.


a) `` Nobody is out for revenge``------ I beg to differ, read the thread.

b) ``Many of us feel that somebody who does something as monsterous as this has lost the right to live in society and lost the right to the priveleges included therein``. ---- In case you have not yet noticed sweetcakes, he has already lost his right to live in society. He is held in a hospital. I have not advocated that he be set free.

c) How does his mental state erase what he did? - ------ it does not erase anything, but his mental state affects his CULPABILITY. Go read about psychosis, and learn something, then you will know why he was found not criminally responsible. Inform yourself about Paranoid Schizophrenia, psychosis and how the law works then your comments can do more than just illustrate how little you know and understand about this particular subject.


If you want to merely show how ignorant you are on this subject every
time you comment, then feel free to continue. You don`t have to train as psychologist or a psychiatrist to understand the basics, so that you can make informed comments instead of emotionally based rants. I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist.

We understand that the majority of comments are from your everyday working stiffs with limited understanding of deeper issues like this one.

Most of the knuckle-draggers can't get past their own emotions regarding a psychotic episode involving brutal murder and cannibalism. The reaction is mostly fear, bolstered by anger and a sense of helplessness.

Being able to separate emotion from thoughts and choice requires an awareness that you just aren't going to see represented here, on a web-based, anonymous comment section.

The truth is, this man poses little or no threat (on medication) while walking outside for 15 minutes twice a day. There's even less of a threat while accompanied by armed guard. This man should not be further punished and deprived for actions which he had no control over and which were unintentional. Denying him walks, is inhumane and a violation of human rights and of his Charter rights. He is a different person and in a completely different mental state than he was two years ago. He is far less dangerous.

Andrew Swan continues to show his inexperience, and was prematurely appointed to the Attorney General position. He will continue to show his shortcomings in that position as time goes on.

All in all, an embarrassing situation that fans the flames of fear and confusion in the community. Hence the revealing comments here, which show the majority to be unenlightened and ignorant...but still, remarkably predictable.


"contrary to the interests of public safety"

Yet another B.S. political quote from another useless attorney general. Andrew Swan is no more qualified to be in that position than a monkey.

I'm so tired of the commenters who say he decided to stop taking meds, so he's responsible for the crime. He was never prescribed meds, so he couldn't start taking them in order to stop. He was in denial about his mental illness, and was never properly diagnosed. Would you want to be labeled as a schizophrenic, seeing (in detail) in these columns how people tolerate mental illness? For those of you who cry out "You take him on walks then," I would gladly, alongside a security guard, which is what would happen. It makes me despair the species that some (most?) of the commenters are so ignorant of mental health problems. They are completely uneducated and misinformed. Li cannot be held accountable for the crime since he did not have the proper mindset while committing the crime. So quit with the regurgitation of the same old outcrys. He was not in control of his actions and they were unintentional, involuntary and unconscious. He was not aware of what he was doing.

What happened to Tim MacLean was horrible, and in a perfect world, would have never happened. I do feel for the family...however, saying that Li should be hanged or locked up never to see the light of day doesn't undo what happened. Plus, it is inhumane and uncivilized. He deserves to have rights and to be treated with respect and dignity and in a humane manner. He should not be treated worse than a prisoner and punished and deprived for actions which were out of his control.

There is no immediate chance of Li being released into society, and there may never be that opportunity for him. Personally, I think he is better off in a mental health facility so that he is taken care of and supervised, since he obviously has dangerous tendencies when not on medication. Does that mean I think he shouldn't be able to go outside for 15 minutes a couple of times a day under supervision? Absolutely not. That would pose no risk to anybody, as he is on medication, has an improved mental state, is far less dangerous and would be supervised by two armed guards!! Confinement can cause further mental health problems such as depression. To facilitate his rehabilitation and treatment, we need to allow him to go outside. 

This about letting the individual walk around the grounds of the hospital under guard as part of treatment plan for a mental disease. It would facilitate his rehabilitation and treatment. 

Andrew Swan had no right to overrule a decision made by professional, educated and knowledgeable doctors and review boards.  

Suppose there was such a thing as a “crazy pill”. I slip it into your drink. It causes you to be totally delusional and detached from reality. In your delusion you are being attacked by murderous demons and you strike out. When you recover you discover that you have just killed someone who had walked up to you to ask for directions.

Are you at fault for what happened? Are you to blame? Should you be punished?

Exactly. Schizophrenia is nature’s “crazy pill”. It’s not your fault if you have it. Having schizophrenia is no more deserving of punishment than having heart disease. It is purely a medical issue. Yes, you should be kept hospitalized if, and to the degree, you are still present danger to yourself or others; but beyond that you are as entitled to liberty as anyone else. Period.

The rule that insanity is a defence has been around since the 1800s. It was not invented recently by a bunch of bleeding heart hippies. They have this same rule in Texas and even in China. And the rule is not there because people feel sorry for the “offender” and not the victim – it is there because the logic that the guy is not to blame for what happened is inescapable.

You don’t believe in mitigating circumstances? Responsibility with conditions? You think that the person who kills an intruder deserves the same treatment as the one who robs and kills an elderly person in their home? That someone who is stricken with grief and kills the person who raped and killed their children should be treated just like anyone else? What if that person accidentally shot someone else in the process? Everyone painted with the same brush?

You speak of morals. A person’s moral compass is not necessarily impacted because they live in a different reality. If you believe with every fiber of your being that someone is trying to kill your children, destroy the world…that you are at war…then you will try to stop them. That is the tragedy…because many think they are doing good.

The family and the passengers deserve our sympathy. And society needs to be protected. And if we allow normal populations leeway for various acts, then the same should hold true for the mentally ill. 

"Swan: STOP PLAYING POLITICS with PEOPLES' LIVES! Follow the advice of experts who are trained BOTH in criminal issues as WELL as mental health. Otherwise, you just abuse government power to discriminate against someone who has been very seriously ill and has to reconcile somehow what they did, which will probably take them THE REST OF THEIR LIFE! :("

I couldn't agree more. Isn't it interesting how almost no one is commenting on the questionable legality of Swan's actions? Let's say the situation was reversed and the review board had refused to allow Li out for fresh air. Then Swan overruled their decision and called it inhumane. Boy, would the mob be screaming about the law and calling for Swan's resignation then!

You people can't cherry-pick the laws you think should be enforced just to suit your own feelings on the matter. You also lose all credibility when you insist Vince Li should be put to death, deported, thrown in a dark hole, sent to jail, etc. None of those options are legal and it's pretty hypocritical to be criticizing someone for a crime and then calling for illegal punishments.

The public has a misunderstanding and ignorance surrounding mental disorders. 

Swan and "fence em in" and "hang em high" knuckle draggers ... just remember the next person confined to a mental health facility COULD BE YOU! :(

The truth is, this man poses little or no threat (on medication) while walking outside for 15 minutes twice a day.

smarterthanyou - You make a very very important distinction here, "on medication". What happens when he's not on medication, or no longer feels he needs the medication, or conceals the fact he’s stopped taking his mediation, or even better yet, when the doctors get his medication wrong?

Only when Li is inside a strictly controlled secure environment is he manageable. That environment should definitely include a very secure perimeter fence and armed guards, so that he can get some fresh air occasionally, something most prisoners are entitled to. Anything outside of such an environment, Li is a risk to the public. Due to this, Li should remain in a secure facility for the foreseeable future, if not the rest of his life. Because when he ultimately goes off his medication at some point, which he will, it will be but a matter of time until someone gets seriously hurt or killed. Anyone who thinks otherwise is blindly naive and ignorant. This is not a broad statement on all persons who have mental illness, only those who’ve committed horribly violent acts against others. They can’t go to jail because they are NCR, but yet they still kill and maim, therefore they need to be housed in secure mental facilities.

My suggestion to everyone who knows little about mental illness...which is the majority of people commenting it seems...do some thorough research, listen to those who have dealt with it or know someone who's dealt with it. Also, note that there is a difference between all mental illnesses. Schizophrenia is separate from depression, post-partum depression, obsessive compulsive disorder, etc. Schizophrenia among patients is even different case by case. So do not generalize, learn more of what you speak, then come back and provide intelligent conversation.

"Everyone who sympathizes with this piece of crap beware the next murder will be someone you love, and you'll see how it feels to see people siding with a murderer."

Or, you or someone you love may develop a psychosis and commit murder and you'll see how it feels to see people calling you or your loved one a monster or an animal and screaming for the death penalty. Don't think it can happen? Think again.

"Despite Li having no documented history of mental illness before the killing, a testifying psychiatrist diagnosed Li as having schizophrenia."

So, if he was never diagnosed, he wouldn't have been on medication. So, take that as you will.


I'm so tired of the commenters who say he decided to stop taking meds, so he's responsible for the crime. He was never prescribed meds, so he couldn't start taking them in order to stop. He was in denial about his mental illness, and was never properly diagnosed. Would you want to be labeled as a schizophrenic, seeing (in detail) in these columns how people tolerate mental illness? For those of you who cry out "You take him on walks then," I would gladly, alongside a security guard, which is what would happen. It makes me dispair the species that some (most?) of the commenters are so ignorant of mental health problems. Li cannot be held accountable for the crime since he did not have the proper mindset while committing the crime. So quit with the regurgitation of the same old outcrys.

What happened to Tim MacLean was horrible, and in a perfect world, would have never happened. I do feel for the family...however, saying that Li should be hanged or locked up never to see the light of day doesn't undo what happened.

There is no immediate chance of Li being released into society, and there may never be that opportunity for him. Personally, I think he is better off in a mental health facility so that he is taken care of and supervised, since he obviously has dangerous tendencies when not on medication. Does that mean I think he shouldn't be able to go outside for 15 minutes a couple of times a day under supervision? Absolutely not.


We understand that the majority of comments are from your everyday working stiffs with limited understanding of deeper issues like this one.

Most of the knuckle-draggers can't get past their own emotions regarding a psychotic episode involving brutal murder and cannibalism. The reaction is mostly fear, bolstered by anger and a sense of helplessness.

Being able to separate emotion from thoughts and choice requires an awareness that you just aren't going to see represented here, on a web-based, anonymous comment section.

The truth is, this man poses little or no threat (on medication) while walking outside for 15 minutes twice a day. There's even less of a threat while accompanied by armed guard.

Andrew Swan continues to show his inexperience, and was prematurely appointed to the Attorney General position. He will continue to show his shortcomings in that position as time goes on.

All in all, an embarrassing situation that fans the flames of fear and confusion in the community. Hence the revealing comments here, which show the majority to be unenlightened and ignorant...but still, remarkably predictable.